Episode 260 – Unstoppable IEP Advocates with Amanda Selogie and Vickie Brett

Unstoppable Mindset

In the education world “IEP” stands for Individualized Education Plan. IEP also stands for the Inclusive Education Project. In the latter case, the IEP is a boutique law firm started by two women, Amanda Selogie and Vickie Brett, who decided to devote their lives to helping parents of children with disabilities and the children themselves to get the best possible education. While there are special education teachers and others who help facilitate the education of “children with special needs”, they can’t do it alone. The education system tends not to know much about special education in specific and disabilities in general.

In the United States, one of the basic ways “special education” is monitored and controlled is through the initialization of what is called an Individualized Education Plan for each child with a disability. This plan is something that must be agreed upon by representatives of the education system, the parents of children with disabilities and, when possible, the children themselves. The process can often be somewhat acrimonious and daunting especially for the families. Vickie and Amanda work to represent their clients and help get the services and equipment their children require to get a full education.

This episode is quite informative especially if you are a parent of a child with a disability. Even if this is not the case, you well may know of someone who can take advantage of what Vickie and Amanda offer. On top of everything else, this is clearly an inspiring episode about two women who are doing very important work.

About the Guest:

Amanda Selogie received a bachelor’s degree in Child and Adolescent Development, specializing in Education from California State University, Northridge and a Juris Doctorate from Whittier Law School where she served as a Fellow in the prestigious Center for Children's Rights Fellowship Program and served in the school's pro-bono Special Education Legal Clinic. Amanda immersed herself in the world of civil rights and educational advocacy through her work in education, empowerment and advocacy with the Inclusive Education project, supporting inclusion in early education through her appointment to the Orange County Child Care and Development Planning Council and their Inclusion Collaborative Committee, previous work serving as a supervising attorney for UCI Law School’s Education Rights Pro-bono project and coaching of AYSO’s VIP (Very Important Player) program coaching players living with disabilities and creating an inclusive soccer program.

Vickie Brett was born and raised in Southern California and through the Inclusive Education Project she focuses on advocating and educating families about their legal rights. Vickie is committed to strengthening her clients who come to her disheartened and beaten down by the current education system. Because Vickie is bilingual, she represents and empowers many monolingual Spanish-speaking families. She is a dedicated pro bono attorney for the Superior Court of Los Angeles’s Juvenile and Dependency 317(e) Panel and in the past was a supervising attorney for the UCI Law School's Special Education Law Project.

Ways to connect with Amanda & Vicki:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inclusiveeducationproject/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/IEPcalifornia/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/inclusive-education-project

About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and today we get to really deal with all of those. Our guests are Vickie Britt and Amanda Selogie, and if I were not a nice person, I would really have a lot of fun with saying they're both lawyers, and we could start into the lawyer jokes, but we won't get there. We won't do that, but they are. They're very special lawyers, very seriously, because what they do is spend their days dealing with helping to get students in California the services and the support that they need. A lot of times, working with what's called the IEP, which they'll explain and representing parents and students when it's necessary to work with school districts to get the districts to do the things that they should, there are laws, and unfortunately, all too often, the districts aren't aware of the laws, or choose to ignore the laws because, oh, that would be too expensive for us to do, and they're going to talk to us all about that. So Amanda and Vicky, I just want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being here. Vickie Brett ** 02:34 Thanks for having us. Amanda Selogie ** 02:35 Thanks for having us. Vickie Brett ** 02:36 So I'm Vicky Brett, and we have Amanda Selogie ** 02:41 Amanda Selogie I didn't Vickie Brett ** 02:43 know if you wanted me to say your name or not. And we are from we are special education attorneys in Southern California, and we have our own nonprofit law firm called the inclusive education project, for those people in the know. The acronym is IEP, which also shares the same acronym for the students with disabilities that we represent. They have individualized education plans which lovingly go by IEP, so that's how people can remember us. We're the IEP gals, right? And we've been doing this for, oh my goodness, for like, 12 plus years now as attorneys and advocates, obviously, Amanda and I started in law school as special education advocates, and that's actually how how we met. Amanda, do you want to talk about what other things our nonprofit does before kind of get into how we met? Amanda Selogie ** 03:40 Yeah, of course. So the Inclusive Education Project provides kind of a number of services. One of the primary services we provide is legal services. So because we are a nonprofit, we provide both pro bono, so free services, legal services, and what we call low Bono, which are low cost, flat rates for families, our representation is a little bit different than what you would think of as a normal, traditional attorney. Traditional attorneys file lawsuits, and that's the primary purpose of their practice. And while there are lawsuits to be had in special education, we call them filing for due process. It is not the only thing that we do. A lot of what we do is advocating and collaborating, both for and with students living with disabilities, their families and the school team. Most of the time when families come to us, there's already conflict, things going on that there's disagreements. So we try to come in and bridge that gap, if we can. We love when families come to us at the beginning of their journey, because then we can help guide them through that process to avoid a lot of problems that fall and get to you. Know due process. So along those lines, the reason we have this as a nonprofit not just to provide low cost services and free services, but our mission is really to educate and empower parents on their legal rights, but also provide more education and have a better conversation around disability rights and education between service providers and parents and families and school districts and teachers and administrators. So along those lines, we do trainings for schools and parents, and we also have a podcast where, you know, we kind of touch on any topic under the sun relating to Education and Disability Rights and special education, and really trying to make this world a little bit smaller in terms of getting families and schools a little bit more knowledgeable about the resources available and just the different techniques we could be using to help better educate These kids Vickie Brett ** 05:58 well, and going beyond just acceptance to understanding and inclusivity. I think that's that's really the, the cornerstone of our nonprofit, and like, why we have the podcast, the Inclusive Education Project podcast, the mentality is just to start those conversations. I think a lot of people have those conversations, but they're very surface, and so whatever we can share in our experiences of the clients that we fight for, the students, we try to do that and and it's been a nice way to kind of blow off some steam as well, because a lot of administrators and parents who actually reach out, and we've had some of them, which, which is so wonderful, because it really is, you know, it just shows that we're all kind of, we're all humans, and we could always be doing better. But when we see that administrators, you know, listen to us, it really, it makes us feel that, you know, we're not just shouting into a void, or we're just not preaching to the choir, where we are actually being able to have these tough conversations and have people from from the district side, really receive it and then provide us feedback, which, which has been nice. Yeah, like Amanda said, Oh, go ahead. 07:27 Oh, you go ahead. Oh, I Vickie Brett ** 07:30 was just gonna say, Yeah, we, you know, we, we do our, our bread and butter is special education. So that would be issues that children with special needs are encountering in school districts. We also do a bit of probate. We do try to provide kind of a one stop shop for our clients in that if they have their child, because when their child becomes an adult and they need assistance with getting a limited conservatorship or certain powers to help that child transition into adulthood, we can with the limited conservatorships, and then we also provide special needs trust, which come into play when the parent wants to kind of set up a trust. You know, their will to leave their the child, their inheritance, and to be sure that their disability is protected, we we help create special needs trust for those families. So you some, I mean, now we've had the firm 10 years, and I feel like, yeah, Amanda, you've had your clients starting from, like, kinder to, like, High School, which is, like, phenomenal. I know I've had clients you know that I got, you know, in the fourth grade, and they've already graduated, and it's just it really warms our heart to be able to kind of discuss what it is that we do, because not a lot of people know, I think you would think that other attorneys know, but they really don't know. It's just a very small percentage of us in in the nation. But then, just let alone in California, you know, compared to Arizona, where there might be only a few special education attorneys, you know, maybe three in the whole state, California obviously will have a little bit more because of our our state is so big, but compared to family law attorneys or personal injury attorneys, we are very small percentage. So it's nice to be able to kind of speak to that, and what it is that we, we do do, well, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 09:38 well, go ahead. Oh, I Amanda Selogie ** 09:40 was just gonna say a lot of a lot of people think attorneys, and they think, Oh, it's just lawsuits. And everyone thinks like, Oh, our country is too happy. And like, what we love to say is, like, we are counselors in every sense of the word, like we, we try not to have lawsuits. Like we really try to encompass so much more. I mean, our practice, and that's part of just what special education is and why. Some families have been with us for so long is it's more than just the legal side, sure. Michael Hingson ** 10:06 And I thought the reason I wanted I started this one, I should say, differently than I've done a lot of podcasts. And the reason because I think that what you guys do is really so unique, and that you have done so much to address the issue of disabilities and so on. I really wanted to give you an opportunity to really, kind of explain it, but tell me if you would a little bit more about why you chose to go into the field of dealing with disabilities. Amanda Selogie ** 10:44 Amanda, I can start. Oh, you can start. Vickie Brett ** 10:50 This is Vicki, you know, it's, it's really funny, because Amanda and I a lot of the special education attorneys in the field, it's it's changing. We, I feel like we were like, that first tide of changing. But a lot of them were attorneys in business litigation, district attorneys, and then they had a child with special needs, and then they, like, stumbled across this area of the law, Amanda. And I really, or I'll let Amanda go into hers, but I did actually kind of stumble, stumble into it very early on in law school. Amanda and I were a year apart. I was a year ahead of her, and we both decided to study abroad in Spain and hit it off. And she was like, we should have a class together. I'm I'm taking this clinic, the special education clinic, you should do it too. And I thought, oh, okay, I was kind of already set on my path of environmental law, dating myself a little bit. I wanted to be like Aaron Brockovich, you know, my dad was in environmental science, and so I, you know, I really wanted to take it up for the environment. And I had a internship with Coast keepers, and really was kind of on that path. And once I joined the clinic, I realized that being bilingual, I could help Spanish speaking families, and I really kind of fell in love with this area of the law. It was really just, you know, being a people person, and getting involved and seeing how you could advocate on behalf of these, these children with unique learning challenges. And I had, I have a cousin on the spectrum, and at the time, I kind of known, oh, he had a plan and things like that, but I really didn't know the intricacies of it. And after I graduated, I actually was hired by the professors that ran the clinic. So Amanda and I never got our class together. She was in the LA, and they pulled me from LA to the Orange County sector because I spoke Spanish. So we didn't even get the class together, but we did keep in contact, and while I kind of worked at this boutique law firm that did special education and then also did family law. And then once Amanda graduated and passed the bar A year later, and she started working for a separate just special education law firm, we would always get together and talk about our cases and like how we could do things differently. And what's so funny to think is we thought 10 years from now, which would be right now, right would be ridiculous, but like 10 years from now, we're gonna open up our own firm, but we really quickly realized that we could just do it ourselves. And so I'll let Amanda tell how she got into Yeah, because it's completely different. Amanda Selogie ** 13:40 Yeah, yeah. I went to law school specifically, knowing that I wanted to practice special education law. I fought going to law school for a very long time. It wasn't my plan. I had a very young age, thought I was going to be a teacher, and I dabbled in costume design for theater. Changed a lot, and then I kind of got back to teaching, and my or, or the plan of teaching. My aunt is a special education teacher in LA and has been for like, 25 years. And I had worked with kids with disabilities on and off, different capacities, summer camps, tutoring, that sort of thing in high school. And when I was getting a degree in child development, I started working as a one on one a for a child in a charter school. And the charter school was a full inclusion school. So one of those schools that was is kind of one in a million, where full inclusion is done very well, and works very well. And so I had the benefit of seeing that while I was in college, and I worked primarily with this little boy who had Down syndrome, but I worked with a few other students as well, and I absolutely fell in love with it. I fell in love with working with the kids, and I was just so inspired by. Not only the kids that I've worked one on one with, but the other kids in the class and the whole school, that just the dynamics and the vibe and just the collaborative nature of the school, everyone working together, everyone was on the same page. Everyone was treated the same like things. And it wasn't. It wasn't, unfortunately, what we see in a lot of school. And I, I thought, this is this is right, I'm going to be a special ed teacher. But then that kind of shifted, because as I worked more and more with the school and with certain families and learned how just what an anomaly this one school is, and that that that was not the case in 99% of schools, and that families really had to fight tooth and nail to get services even a fraction of what I saw in this school. And I learned about due process. I learned about some of these families having to fight for the legal system. And you know, I had this thing in the back of my head of being told, as a kid, you should be an attorney, because I like to argue, I guess, and talk. It's something that I never wanted. I never wanted to go to law school. English was not my subject. I was a math kid, but I just I felt in my gut that I would be one of those teachers that would speak up and get fired, or I would push too many buttons, and it would be very challenging for me to sit on my hands and not say anything. And so it kind of just fell together, like I kind of fell into it as, like an awful moment of this is the way that I can support and work with these kids and do something that I was kind of pushed to do. And I found out a little bit more about the theory of law and how there's very few attorneys that do it, and I was really intrigued by the fact that it was very individualized and new, and it wasn't something that was very cookie cutter. And I liked that I could be creative and have that creative side to it. So went to law school, and, you know, Vicki shared our story of how we met, and was fortunate enough that I did go into this field, and I absolutely I continue to fall in love with it and the kids that we work with. And you know, when Vicki and I started our practice, a big part of it was because we saw the way things were being done with other firms, and the focus was on cases and lawsuits and getting the case law and pushing for changes in legislation. And while that's important, it's it takes a toll on families, and it's not something that is a quick resolution. And so while these cases go through the court system, these kids are getting older and older, and next thing you know, they're out of school. And while the system may have been impacted by their case, they haven't been and we just felt like this. This wasn't what we were meant to do. We were meant to help a different way, similar to how I felt when I was in undergrad. And so when we started our firm, we had this, this, this goal of having a bigger impact than just one case at a time. And I think that's why, like, we have clients, Vicki mentioned that we've had for a very long time. I have some that started in kindergarten that are now in high school. Because our goal isn't to file lawsuits. Our goal isn't to hide things and prepare for a hearing or prepare for litigation, which is what a lot of attorneys do. That's their focus. Our goal is, how can we help this child right now? How can we help the school right now? Because a lot of what we're doing is help the teachers get more services and more support into the classroom, to get teachers and school staff trained to keep environments safe and so our and that's why, you know, we love what we do, because we can be very creative, and the law allows us to be because everything is supposed to be individualized, and the law is there to protect kids. And unfortunately, one of the biggest problems we see is that enforcement is just not there, because it does take attorneys like us coming in to enforce the law. It takes parents fighting to enforce the law, choosing to fight to enforce the law. So yeah, you know, we do things just a little bit differently, Michael Hingson ** 19:09 okay? And I can appreciate that how much of your caseload deals with disabilities and and special services like what we've been talking about, Amanda Selogie ** 19:20 100% because all of our clients have a disability, even our small sector of probate still deals with it's not traditional probate, it's only the conservatorship special needs trust. But I'd say about 5% is probate. The rest of it is dealing with schools and school districts, so just about all of our cases. Michael Hingson ** 19:41 So the I'm familiar with IEPs, and actually, when I was growing up, I don't think we had an IEP if we did, I never knew about it, but I've been a staunch advocate, and love to help people when they have questions about IEPs and so on. So again, it's. Virtual, individualized education plan. But what are some of the biggest challenges that parents face when dealing with the whole special education and educational process? Vickie Brett ** 20:13 Yeah, I mean, sometimes it ebbs and flows, but I would say the biggest challenge is not knowing what they don't know. And when you have a child that maybe you know, has some type of disability, right, if it's if it's outward, you know, they'll they're diagnosed with cerebral palsy once they're born, and you kind of have some time to really be able to kind of digest that information, I think that parent will come to the school district a bit more prepared to say, Hey, this is my child. This is what I think my child needs, and they'll be able to speak to it when we have parents that have their child go into the school system and they don't know that their child has some type of learning challenge. That is where I think it kind of gets sticky. So the child may have dyslexia, the child may have some of these disabilities that you wouldn't necessarily know until your your child really started learning things. And of course, you know, here in California, we always talk about zero to five and the push to, you know, read to your children and all this stuff. But you know, unless you have a child development background, sometimes it's and you know your child best, but sometimes you don't really understand what their challenges are until they're in the school system. And so oftentimes will get parents that have maybe had IEPs for a couple years, and they've had a great team, but some of those team members change, and then they start to feel not heard. They feel that their child is not seen, and then they get mad, and they Google, you know, attorney and so and so. That's why, you know, we we feel that some of these challenges, and what our podcast really tries to focus on, at times, are these different issues that come up. What is it that you have to look for if you believe that your child should be eligible for an IEP, how do you request that? What is an IEP? What are present levels? But yeah, I think the biggest challenge, because even if you know your child inside out, it's sometimes really hard to navigate the politics, if you will, of these individualized education plan meetings I have, for instance, like one case where the child very clearly needs a One to One aid. Everybody has said it, but the administrator, for whatever reason, has not put it in the IEP that the child has said it, the the general education teacher says he needs one. The RSP teacher says he needs one. His speech and language pathologist says he needs one. But, you know, we just haven't gotten there. And that to me, just seems wild, right? That that this child has not put it in, they haven't put it in the IEP, and it's because, and they even said it, well, you know, we're in an age shortage. We don't have an aid that we can provide them. Oh, well, if we try to hire one, it's going to take forever. These are not excuses that, you know, you should be standing on. The law is very clear about it, but yes, do we understand that there are some things that we need to kind of push in order to get it done. It just because you can't hire an aide that would just work exclusively for the district doesn't mean you can't go with a private agency that could provide an aid, right? But that's going to cost more. So that's what I mean about, like, the politics of it. Amanda, what big challenges do you think? And like I said, it ebbs and flows, so it just depends on our caseloads. That was one that just came to my mind. But what about you? Yeah, yeah, Amanda Selogie ** 23:54 I think that training and experience plays a big role. You know, whether we're dealing with a child who's in a general education class and that general education teacher has a general education credential, they do not have a special education credential. The majority of times, they have not received any training. Maybe they've had a few kids on IEPs, maybe they haven't. And the reality is, is that a general education credential doesn't come with specialized training for special education. They may be a bit knowledgeable about there may be a child with a disability. You know, I my degree was at a school where a lot of students were getting their teaching credentials at the same time, so I took the majority of the same classes as the students that were going to get their credentials. They just had one extra year. And I can tell you, based on my course load, and based on the course load of all my friends that were in the teaching credential program, there was one class that had anything to do with special education. And it was very minimal, and it wasn't a guarantee that even everyone took it. And I took that class, and I can tell you that it's very minimal. It doesn't really it doesn't really train you on how to implement an IEP, or how to understand the why behind a lot of what's in the IEP. And while a general education teacher may come to an IEP meeting, an IEP meeting isn't training, it's, you know, development of the accommodations and the goals, and they may get a fraction of the information about that child's disability, but they're not an expert on autism, they're not an expert on ADHD. They're not an expert on sensory processing deficit or and so a lot of perceptions occur. We have a lot of teachers that make assumptions. They may have had one child with ADHD, and they think they're all doing the same, and this worked for them so that not there's a lot of perceptions that they seem fine if they would just and then fill in the blank, right? If they would just do their work, if they would just show up to class, if they would just pay attention. The assumption is that they should be able to do all these things, just like every other child. When Michael Hingson ** 26:10 you say they, who are you referring to as they? Amanda Selogie ** 26:14 A lot of times the teachers because they don't, yeah, they don't have that specialized training, and frankly, even a special education teacher has a specific credential, but it's, there's so many vast different abilities and disabilities out there, and there's spectrums, there's, you know, not all kids that have one diagnosis to be the same. There's comorbidities, there's there's even, when you look at, like, if you analyze and review an assessment report for an individual child, there's, there's a lot of numbers in there right of low scores or average scores or below average and but there's not a lot of times an analysis of, how does This impact the child in the classroom? And so a lot of teachers have kind of a variety of knowledge and experience and training on kids. And IEPs are developed in a way that are supposed to be individualized that child. And so if that teacher isn't given training on that child's needs. A lot of times, like I mentioned, we have these assumptions about what a child should be able to do or shouldn't. But then we also have, how do we implement the accommodations that are there? How do we implement the services? And if we have speech therapy, are we really collaborating between the speech therapist and the special education teacher and the general education teacher and the parent, so that we're using a lot of the same strategies and implementing and so a lot of times we get families that come to us and the IEP on its face looks okay. A lot of times the IEP doesn't look okay. But in many circumstances, we can fight and we can make sure the IEP looks okay, but if it's not implemented appropriately, because there's not a lot of training, or not the right training, or we don't have ongoing analysis of these different factors, then it's going to cause problems. And there's not really a mechanism for the school district to sit there and say, let me analyze each of these IEPs and make sure that everybody involved has the proper training. There's nobody doing that. Michael Hingson ** 28:28 Yeah, it's it's not even just the teachers. It's also the administrators who get no training in this at all. How do people find you? So it's not like your Jacobi and Myers or those kinds of things. So the reality is that there are so many people who probably aren't even familiar with the whole IEP process and what their rights are, what their children's rights are, or the parents rights, or the children how? How do they find you? Vickie Brett ** 29:01 Most of the time it's word of mouth. So you have parents that either you know, like I said, Google us right, and are able to find us that way, or hear us on our podcast or even on our social media, they're able to find us and are able to kind of contact us that way, but for the most part, yeah, it's word of mouth. So one parent, you know, starts talking to other parents, and then, you know, our name comes up. We also do a lot of presentations for nonprofits, and have in the past done for schools, private schools, and really have tried to just kind of be out in the community and do pre covid. We had done a lot of panels and discussions. And really, just like I said, start, start those conversations, we network with a lot of professionals that are not Attorneys. Other attorneys usually get referrals from other attorneys. Potentially we could get and we've done conferences like family law attorney conferences and personal injury attorney conferences. They might be the ones more often than not, that come across a family with a child with some type of unique learning challenge or disability, but yeah, I would say the majority of our cases come from a parent that was talking to a parent in the hospital on the way to a physical therapy appointment or even just during pickup, which is great, because that's the, you know, it's, it's always easier to refer someone that you know, to somebody that you know hasn't has a problem that they need help, especially at a legal level with so Michael Hingson ** 30:49 So one question that comes to mind is, who pays for your services and how does that all work out? Because I got to imagine that a lot of the parents can't really afford any kind of substantive legal fees. Amanda Selogie ** 31:03 Yeah, so it depends, depends on what kind of services we're providing. We do have a portion of our services that are pro bono, so they're free to the families. There's a section of the legal statute that says parents should be entitled to legal representation because of the way the system was set up. So if you go through due process, through litigation, and you go to hearing and you win, then you are entitled to get your attorney's fees paid for. So whether the family pays up front or they don't, and it's pro bono, the if you prevail in hearing, you can get attorney's fees paid that way. 95% of Special Education cases settle. They don't go to hearing. So part of the negotiations in this settlement is for attorney's fees, because the school district recognizes that parents are entitled to that, and you know, the settlement wouldn't happen if not, but for the attorneys involvement, and because they are entitled to it, settlement funds do get part, get included as part of the settlement agreement. And then there are circumstances that don't involve litigation, and families want our help to either help coordinate or walk them through serve this the system of IEPs help them kind of manage it. And so those services we do offer a flat rate so we don't charge by the hour. We do low flat rate services, and typically, our clients retain us for an entire year that allows us to follow them through that IEP process, because it's not just one two hour meeting, it's a lot of follow ups and a lot of making sure that IEPs are being implemented and things need to be tweaked and follow up meetings. And so in those cases, families do pay, but we do have a sliding scale, so it's really based on how income and size, the complexity of their case. But they're all lower rates, and they're they're flat fees, when, Michael Hingson ** 33:10 when you say lower rates. I'm just curious, can you give us an example, or is that something you can easily Vickie Brett ** 33:15 Yeah, so, I mean, you know, because some of those attorney we know, I mean, obviously we're really transparent with our colleagues, but you know, the boards have to, at times, the school boards have to have meetings where they are approving the attorneys fees. So our attorneys fees, compared to some of those in Southern California, they if they charge hourly, it can be anywhere from about 678, $100 an hour out in LA if you're getting the cream of the crop, it's similar pricing as well. If they are charging hourly that there are very few that will take a majority of the cases as the pro bono cases as a man explain that we do they do then, because the statute does indicate that we can get some of our attorneys fees. But something that I think parents don't necessarily understand is that, you know, because it is, it's a negotiation tactic of the districts to not pay all attorneys fees, right? So if you're the parent and you're paying an attorney $10,000 and they've resolved everything at mediation, your child's getting everything that you wanted, but then the district comes back and says, Well, we're only going to pay you $5,000 that puts the attorney in a weird position, because you as a parent want all your 10,000 back, right? But this is a negotiation, and so then that's not likely going to happen. And we just, we, we just take that out of the equation, like we're going to be the ones that are going to be deciding what we are going to accept. We're. Not putting that on you, because we have had colleagues where over a couple $1,000 the parent had to go to hearing and then ended up ultimately losing on several issues that technically the settlement would have resolved for them very easily, simply because they they wanted all of their attorneys fees, and that was the client's decision, right? And so, yeah, we just, we just delete that from the equation. And if anyone's going to be making that decision, it's Amanda or I, especially knowing that a lot of these districts use it as a as a tactic to keep attorneys from providing these services for free to many families, what I was Michael Hingson ** 35:39 thinking of more when I asked the fee question was not so much the cases that go into litigation, but more in the cases where you're helping someone go through the IEP and so on. And so I'm not really looking at it in terms of since I understand not all cases go to litigation, but yeah, yeah, other cases that don't go through litigation. How does that work? Yeah, Vickie Brett ** 36:02 not a lot of attorneys will do like the yearly care maintenance package that we do with a flat rate. They will still charge hourly. So there are advocates that that will advertise that they can help at IEP meetings. So maybe this was a former school psychologist turned, you know, educational consultant, and they can walk you through the IEP process. And so some of them can be just as expensive as an attorney in Southern California. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, some of them are charging four or $500 and the the problem that they get into is that that's okay to help navigate. But when it comes to a point where you're you're leaving things on the table. For instance, let's say the child has needed speech and language services for two years, and you finally secure it as an advocate, but you are not. You know, going back to the district. They can't, because they can't sue them, but if you're not turning that case over to an attorney so that the child can be made whole by being provided compensatory education in the form of speech and language for them not having it for the past two years, I think that's where it kind of gets sticky. But, yeah, I mean a lot of but Michael Hingson ** 37:19 if you got a lot of attorneys, if you were doing a flat rate kind of thing, sort of, what's the range of that over? Let's say you're, you're, you're going to be helping someone say, for a year, kind of, what's the general range of that for you guys? Amanda Selogie ** 37:33 That kind of changes, um, year to year, obviously costs increase and stuff like that. But I mean, it can really go from a couple $1,000 up to 10 or more 1000. Just it really, really depends. Michael Hingson ** 37:47 That's what I was. Just curious. Our Amanda Selogie ** 37:48 board kind of lays out some guidelines. We do it based on, you know, income, so we try to keep the fees low. But some, some families, the case is fairly simple, and what we're looking to do is just kind of help and give them advice other times, like we possibly have to file for due process. So in those cases, it could be more, it could be less, it really depends. But of course, if you look at the amount of time that Vicki was explaining, it's nowhere near the hourly rate that most attorneys No. Michael Hingson ** 38:25 And I understand, yeah, and I understand that. So here's another question regarding that, are there ever times when, again, let's, let's not go to a due process litigation kind of thing, but where you're helping a parent, and essentially, you're helping the school district as well, because typically, there isn't a lot of expertise. Do you ever find that when that kind of thing occurs, that the school district will help pay any of the fees? Or is that really always going to be on the parent alone? Amanda Selogie ** 38:56 Usually, the only time the school district will pay for fees outside of litigation is if there's a settlement agreement. So there are times where we're working with the school team, and both sides recognize that there's a conflict that needs to be resolved. The school district maybe wants to provide something, but they want to be confidential. They don't want other families to know they're providing a service and but they don't want to go through litigation. They don't want to have to deal with a lawsuit. So we will negotiate settlements, sometimes outside of litigation, and usually included in that is attorneys fees, because if we're avoiding litigation, that's similar so, but usually not through just the IEP process. They don't say, like, hey, we'll, we'll, you know, throw you a couple bucks for these services. Unfortunately, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 39:44 it'd be nice, but unfortunately, that kind of funding isn't there, and so it, it is difficult, but what? What kind of advice would you give to parents who may. Disagree with an individualized education program, if I could talk, I'd be great. But what kind of things might you suggest for a parent who disagrees with a plan to to at least deal with the process? And I mean, obviously at some point they have to call in someone like you. But what are some things that a parent can do up front if they say, No, I really don't agree with this. Yeah, Vickie Brett ** 40:27 so, I mean, you know, make that known, especially at the IEP. You know, get a copy of the IEP and if, for instance, let's say they're taking away occupational therapy your child's had it for, you know, 30 minutes a week for forever. And, you know, they do an assessment and they say, Oh, well, we don't think he needs it anymore. The parent can initiate stay put. And so essentially, what that says to the district is, I don't agree with taking this away, and so I'm not going to agree for you to take it away, and the services that we've had in the past are what's going to stay put right? That we're not going to change that. That also signals to the district that they either need to hold another IEP, and you can try to compromise at that IEP, oh, well, you know, maybe let's do a fade out plan. Or maybe, you know what, instead of 30 minutes a week, maybe we're willing to do every other week, right? Of course, they're going to have their own say in why they don't, you know, think that they need these services anymore, but at least it kind of gives them an indication like, oh, okay, there's something wrong here if the district doesn't do another IEP, maybe, you know, it's time for you to kind of raise the flag a little bit and say, you know, go to the the principal or the director of special education and ask for maybe a confidential meeting. Maybe you guys can resolve this outside of the IEP, the only thing that we would kind of advise as well is that we've had some districts that work really great with the parent and make changes to the IEP, even though the meeting was confidential. But more often than not, what the district will try to do in that confidential meeting is have you sign a confidential settlement agreement, and that is now a legal document, and you may be giving up rights that you didn't even know that you had. So if you were to do that, you know, always have an attorney, you know, review that information, but at least, you know, starting at the starting point would be, hey, let me see if we can informally resolve this by either having another IEP, you know, I'm staying put, or maybe having a separate conversation with with somebody higher up, like the direct special education for the district. And what we see a lot Amanda Selogie ** 42:51 of times, I Michael Hingson ** 42:52 think one of the important things that people really need to understand is that an IEP isn't just something that the educational system can say, this is it negotiable. It it is up to the parent to bring in whoever they feel they need to bring in to rep, to help, if they need to represent their rights. And the reality is that the child and the parents do have rights, and this school system does not have the right to just say, This is it. This is why it's an individualized education program or plan. It is a plan, and everyone needs to agree to it. And the reality is, many times you know what's really going on, it's a game of, I and the school district don't want to spend money, and the parent is saying, You gotta, it's the law, but, but a lot of parents really don't understand what their rights are regarding IEPs, and that is what is so unfortunate, because they can, can be waylaid in so many ways. How do they learn what they need to know about the whole IEP process, I realize, and I would say right off the bat, my answer to that would be, in part, fine you. But beyond that, how do parents learn? Because I would think that the smarter they are about the IEP process, the quicker it might be that they will bring you in, because they know what you can do. But how do they learn about the process? Yeah, Amanda Selogie ** 44:26 I mean, there's certainly a lot of resources online. I mean, if you just Google terms, like, you know, my rights with an IEP or, you know, help with IEPs, there's, you know, tons of websites and articles out there. Certainly there's a lot of information on social media as well. We are very active on social media, providing tips and tricks, and you know the basics of what you know, parents, legal rights are, and that sort of thing. And then, of course, we have our podcast where. We do just that, try to provide some information for families and educators on things that they can be doing most of the time to avoid a litigation. So there are a lot of resources out there, I think. And one thing that we love that when parents find is that there's a lot of parent groups out there, both like that meet in person and then, as a consequence of covid, a lot of Facebook groups have popped up. So for families who are looking for like local support on their school district, a lot of times, they can find a Facebook group of parents within their school district or their geographic region, because there are some things that vary state to state, and so sometimes that can be really helpful is talking to other parents about, you know, what their experiences have been, and what they've done and things like that. Michael Hingson ** 45:53 So what advice would you have for parents who really want to develop a good, collaborative and working relationship with their school district and their school assuming that the school district or school also wants to really develop a good, positive collaborative relationship. And I'm sure that there are some who don't, because they feel we know all there is to know and that's it. But what's the advice for parents who want to really establish a good relationship, Vickie Brett ** 46:24 I think, is for the parent to have confidence in that they are the expert of their child. I think that kind of gets lost a little bit when you have 10 people on one side, you know, kind of describing a different child than than you see, you, you are the expert. And I think having the confidence to say that and and to really bring the room back to, hey, it's not me against you, it's us against the problem. I think being collaborative in the sense of, you know, if your child has diagnoses, you know, being able to provide that information to the school. You know, sometimes we'll get parents that, you know, for for privacy, you know, don't want to share, but if that diagnosis is impacting the child and how they're accessing the curriculum, and it's not something that's, you know, going to be on their forehead, right? And it's something to help the district kind of see, oh, yeah, I can see why she would need this as an additional accommodation. We, you know, you need to be as transparent as possible. We oftentimes get parents that have, you know, information that they're holding on to because they think it's going to negatively affect the child, but they don't really know, right? It's just them kind of hiding the ball. And while the district shouldn't do that, they do do that. I think people kind of pick up on that. But I think at the end of the day, being able to, you know, if you need to have an IEP meeting, you know, why are we having the IEP meeting, asking the district to provide documents, even draft documents, before the IEP, there's no set law in California that that mandates that they have to provide it to you. But one of the reasons that we ask for drafts of, you know, an assessment, or even the draft IEP is is not because we want to see what the district is going to do and say no. And say, No, we know it's a living document, but let's get it beforehand so that I can read it and come prepared to the IEP meeting to ask whatever questions or make any corrections. And I think just these few kind of tips and tricks of of and having that in your back pocket has helped a lot of our clients when when they no longer need our services, right? That's kind of like the baseline we're coming to open arms to this meeting. We want to know as much information beforehand so we can make the best use of everybody's time, Amanda Selogie ** 48:54 and then to like, along the lines of trusting your gut, like, don't be afraid to ask for things. Don't be afraid to ask for information. So using our wh language, who, what, where, why, when we want to ask details, a lot of times we get information, and parents are afraid to ask more questions. But if you don't truly understand what's being told to you or the why behind it, you're not going to get the answers. And often by parents asking, Well, why do you think this is or why do you think this isn't working? Or why do you think this this does work by asking those questions, often it gets the team to have a better communication. And sometimes we just need to ask for more we need to get more data. We need more information. And it's from those questions that the team realizes we need more information. But then also, don't be afraid to ask for things they're never going to give you things you don't ask for. No, Michael Hingson ** 49:51 I remember growing up very much pre IEP, don't, don't tell and I. Um, I remember, we moved from Chicago after I was in kindergarten, and here in California, they start kindergarten the year after Illinois. So I ended up with two years of kindergarten. The second year was pretty boring because they had no facilities. In the first year, when I was in kindergarten, Illinois, they actually, because there were so many preemie babies who became blind, they actually, with the encouragement, sometimes pretty strong, of the parents, they actually developed a kindergarten class for blind kids. And I learned braille and so on, and all that went away coming out to California, when, when we I was in school. I remember one afternoon, there was an incredible shouting match between my father and the principal of the school because they wanted to ship me off to the California School for the Blind. Oh, now the reality is, I think academically, CSB was still pretty decent at that time in terms of dealing with blind kids, certainly earlier it was, but still, they wanted to ship me off to the California School for the Blind, and my parents would have nothing to do with that, and they did eventually, just plane put their foot down and said, No, we're, we're not going to allow him to be sent away. But it, it does happen, and it's, it's unfortunate that there had to be such a battle over it, but that's the way it went. And ever since then, I've had a few times where in the past, the educational system tried to discriminate against me. In fact, when I was a freshman in high school, the superintendent of the district didn't want my guide dog on the school bus, which was an incredibly gross violation of state law, but his position was, it's local school rules superseded state law. Well, he lost that Vickie Brett ** 52:07 rightly so. My goodness, he Michael Hingson ** 52:09 lost that battle when my father kind of accidentally wrote a letter to the governor of the state of California. You know, so parents do have to be advocates and shouldn't be afraid to be advocates, but make sure you you're advocating for something that makes sense to advocate for learn, and that's something you know in discussing this whole thing, it is also something it seems to me that that parents Need to really understand what their children are capable of. I've seen so many times that Parents of Blind kids, for example, didn't think a blind kid could do anything, and they've been part of the problem and not part of the solution. Vickie Brett ** 52:55 And that, and that's that's hard. And I think, you know, we we come across that. And I think one of the reasons why it's helpful if the parents come to us early on in their journey of getting an IEP is because having the thought of who your child was going to be before they were born, and it not match, and then having the child be born and it not match that ideal kid that you had is very hard for a lot of parents, and there's grief that's involved that sometimes even at 12, when, when we're seeing the parent, you know, they've been a parent for 12 years of this child, and they they're still grieving. And some people get there quicker than others, and that that is difficult, because if you have one sort of mentality, you're You're either part of the solution, right, or you are part of the problem. And so we've seen that as well. And you know, if you are searching for help, I think that's why Amanda had said, not just running to an attorney, but talking to other parents is completely beneficial, Michael Hingson ** 54:07 yeah, and it's not all about running to an attorney by any means. I mean, a lot of reasons to bring an attorney into it for the expertise that they bring, but at some point, and you and we've talked about this a little bit in our original call, we've got to change how we view disabilities. And in this my position, disability does not mean a lack of ability, and that everyone has disabilities. And the problem is we've got to get over this feeling that someone is less than someone else just because they're different. And I'm so glad, earlier in our conversation today, that you talked about inclusion and you didn't use diversity, because diversity typically doesn't involve disabilities. Anyway, people exclude us, and that doesn't work with inclusion, and so I'm glad. Add that you use that term. But we've got to get beyond this idea that disability truly means a lack of ability Vickie Brett ** 55:07 absolutely and like I said, it goes beyond just acceptance, right? And that's what we're pushing the limits of it. I forget. I think I had heard, oh my gosh, Trevor Noah, give this as an example. You know, it's wonderful when you build a house and then you think, oh, you know what, I need to have a wheelchair access ramp here. I That's wonderful. I think it's another thing. And this, this is the best part. When, before you even build that house? You think I want this to be accessible for all, and truly all. So let me go to all these people to see how I can create that house that will truly you know, having that person in mind before you even start is a wonderful thing. Michael Hingson ** 56:02 Yeah, right. Where are some places people can go to learn that kind of thing? Vickie Brett ** 56:08 Oh, goodness. You know, we have come across a couple great institutions that actually reach out to districts and provide this type of training. What our current fight is, is to try to get this to the teachers right to be part of their curriculum, and so that they have those tools to but a lot of teachers also already are doing you know, as long as you know and connect with your student and you can think outside the Box and be afraid, you know, not be afraid of not knowing what you don't know. Then, as long as you are paying attention, you're you're fine. But there are a lot of pro or the curriculums. Like, I can't think of any names off the top of my head, but let me there are people doing it. Let Michael Hingson ** 56:58 me help. Um, oh yes, kind of, one of the things I was thinking of when you were talking about building houses and so on is things like Centers for Independent Living. Oftentimes, they've got a lot of expertise. There's certainly a lot of resources that one can Google like you talked about the big problem with building houses for people is that architects are mostly very clueless about dealing with anything regarding accessibility. In fact, when we built this home in 2016 and my wife was a paraplegic her entire life, we were the main experts that guided the construction of the house from an accessibility standpoint. But even then, when the house was all built and we thought everything was going to be fine, the R the builder, would not put a ramp at the front door, nor the back patio. And he said, Well, you're in a flood zone. And so we can't two points about that, because we contacted and unfortunately, the builder still wouldn't address it, so we had to do it. But we contacted the county, and went to the people down in San Bernardino who are involved with this, and they said, it's ridiculous to say, even if you were, you know, we, first of all, we're not in a flood zone. But even if we were, it doesn't matter, water's still going to travel the same whether it's up a step or up a ramp. Reality is there is only one specific way that there would be a problem in putting in a ramp and at a front door or whatever, and that is if there isn't what's called a weep screen or whatever to to deal with the water going under the house, that could be an issue. But that wasn't the issue with with our situation, and the builder wouldn't do it, so we had to spend the money to do it, and it shouldn't have had to be that way and grossly expensive. But it's it's now done, of course, and yeah, that was the only thing that they didn't do. But the reality is, there are a lot of resources. The architectural industry and the building industry is oftentimes just not overly good about dealing with excess themselves. You're right. The fact is that when people are constructing something new, it would be so wise if right from the outset, they would look at all the possible options. And, you know, we we thought about it when we built this house as well. This is now a home that's available for anyone who who might need a home when we build our home in New Jersey in 1996 the. The same thing there. We had a great builder. His biggest frustration was that the count of the city of Westfield gave them great grief at putting in the elevator that we needed to have, because the only kind of home we could build back there was a two story home. That's what the the associate, not Association, but that street was all about was two story homes, and there was a ranch style, and the county and the city just gave our builder great grief, which he finally worked through. But again, it was a completely accessible house, as it should be, Vickie Brett ** 1:00:39 absolutely, absolutely. And you know, this is kind of our small area of the world that we are trying to make better. But you know, we, we're just so grateful for the opportunity to be able to have these conversations and to be able to put it out there and and we're just so grateful for this opportunity. Michael, thank you for having us well, Michael Hingson ** 1:01:04 and I know that we are scheduled now to come on your podcast a little Yes. So tell me what's the name of the podcast? Amanda Selogie ** 1:01:12 It's the Inclusive Education Project podcast. We just took our name. We weren't super creative. Make it easy for people to find us. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:19 So there you go. And if people want to reach out to you and well, engage you, or talk to you, learn more and so on. How do they do that? Vickie Brett ** 1:01:29 Yeah, Amanda Selogie ** 1:01:29 the best way is through social media or emailing. Going to our website, inclusive educationproject.org, and our handle on all social media is inclusive education project. We're pretty easy. If you Google us to find us, Michael Hingson ** 1:01:43 and if people want to email you, how do they do that? It'll be Amanda Selogie ** 1:01:48 admin at IEP california.org Michael Hingson ** 1:01:52 admin at IEP california.org Do you just do work in California, or do you ever consult outside the state. Amanda Selogie ** 1:02:02 So our legal work, we're licensed to practice only in the state of California, but of course, we do trainings and presentations and consulting work for high schools and whatnot across the country, because the law is the federal law. Yes, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:18 we are dealing with federal on it. So it does make sense to be able to do that? Well, I want to thank you both Amanda and Vickie, for being here. This has been fun, but here's the term educational as well. I really want to thank you both for being here with us, and I think telling us a lot and teaching us a lot, and for parents listening, reach out to Amanda and Vickie, and they will be very happy to speak with you, and can probably help in so many ways. But remember, ultimately, parents, you have the power don't give it up. Yep, don't, don't underestimate your child, and because of that, make sure that what you do really creates an IEP that works for the child. That's ultimately what we're all about. Vickie Brett ** 1:03:09 Absolutely. Thank you so much. Michael. Well, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:11 thank you all, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. I'd love to hear from you. Please feel free to email me if you would. At Michael, H, I M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, E.com, which reminds me, we met you two through Sheldon Lewis, how did that come about? How do you guys know Sheldon? Yeah, you Vickie Brett ** 1:03:31 know what? We were looking to cut. We were making these small changes to our website. And I got connected to him because we are a nonprofit, and it's just, it's, it's been just such a wonderful breath of fresh air to find a community. So he's always asking us to put our input on on blogs and always promoting us and we the same. It's just, it's nice to be part of the little AccessiBe community. It's Michael Hingson ** 1:04:01 great. And you guys have access to be on your site now. Yes, you do, you do? There you go. Well, thank you very much for doing that. And if you want everyone, I gave you my email address, Michael h [e-mail] or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael Hingson is M I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, N, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating, and also, as many of you know, ever since September 11, 2001 after escaping from the World Trade Center, I have been a public speaker. If you ever need a speaker, would love to chat with you about speaking at events and for engagements that you might need. So please feel free to email me at [e-mail] that's the quickest way to get immediately noticed. But please, again, give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We value it, and for all of you, including Vicky and Amanda. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable blind set, please let us know. Love any any suggestions for guests that you can possibly give us, and with that, I want to just thank you both Vicky and Amanda one last time for being here. This has been great. Amanda Selogie ** 1:05:16 Thank you. Vickie Brett ** 1:05:18 Thank you. You better. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. 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