Episode 3: Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War: Not a Modern Historian, but a Participatory Chronicler

Hot Takes on the Classics

Description

In this episode of Hot Takes on the Classics, hosts Tim McIntosh and Emily Maeda explore Thucydides' The Peloponnesian War, examining the legendary conflict between Athens and Sparta. They delve into Thucydides’ historical methodology, the moral lessons embedded in his accounts, and his views on leadership and power. Key topics include the differences between Athens and Sparta, the catastrophic Athenian plague, and pivotal speeches that reveal the complexities of war and governance. The episode concludes with a debate on Thucydides’ legacy as a historian and his relevance to modern political thought.

Show Guide

00:00 Introduction to Thucydides and the Peloponnesian War

00:54 Hosts Introduction and Episode Overview

01:56 Thucydides' Approach to History

04:48 The Reputation of Thucydides

07:18 Thucydides' Background and Exile

10:14 The Thucydides Trap and Modern Parallels

15:43 The Outbreak of the Peloponnesian War

24:06 Great Generals: Kutuzov and Pericles

25:03 Athens' Plague and Its Impact

27:56 Pericles' Leadership and Legacy

30:14 Thucydides' Historical Perspective

32:42 Cleon vs. Diodotus: Athenian Debates

36:01 Thucydides' Relevance Today

36:35 Hot Take: Thucydides and Modern Historians

43:50 Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

Key Topics & Takeaways

• Athens vs. Sparta: The contrasting approaches to war—Athens as a naval innovator and Sparta as a cautious land-based power—create a prolonged conflict of strategy and attrition.
• The Thucydides Trap: The concept that fear of a rising power often leads to conflict offers timeless lessons for understanding global political tensions, particularly in modern geopolitics.
• The Human Cost of War: The Athenian plague and the moral complexities of prolonged conflict highlight the devastating consequences of war beyond the battlefield.
• Thucydides on Leadership: Through figures like Pericles, Thucydides reveals the qualities of effective leadership while cautioning against decisions driven by haste, anger, or hubris.
• Historical Positivism vs. Subjectivity: Emily and Tim debate whether Thucydides’ love for Athens and participatory perspective enhance or diminish his historical credibility.

Questions & Discussion

• How does the Thucydides Trap apply to today’s geopolitics?
  Discuss the relevance of Thucydides’ insight about the fear of a rising power leading to war, particularly in the context of U.S.-China relations.
• What leadership qualities does Thucydides highlight?
  Examine Pericles’ vision and strategy, contrasting it with the weaknesses of later Athenian leaders, and consider their relevance for modern leadership.
• How does Thucydides balance personal bias and historical accuracy?
  Analyze how his love for Athens shapes his account and whether it enhances or detracts from his credibility as a historian.

Suggested Reading

• The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
• Destined for War: Can America and China Escape Thucydides’s Trap? by Graham Allison (While not directly referenced in the podcast, the concept of the "Thucydides Trap" discussed in the episode connects closely to this book’s exploration of historical patterns of rising and established powers)