Building Opportunity through Apprenticeships with John Colborn

Work Forces

John Colborn is Executive Director of Apprenticeships for America, a national nonprofit dedicated to advancing apprenticeships as a viable pathway to expand opportunities for American workers and employers. John shares his extensive background in workforce development and his holistic view of economic opportunity, emphasizing the importance of education and skills training. The conversation explores the historical context and current state of apprenticeships in the U.S., highlighting the need for increased investment and a supportive ecosystem to enhance the apprenticeship model. Join us as we offer an in-depth look at how apprenticeships can serve as an alternative to traditional college pathways, promoting economic advancement through practical work experience and structured learning.

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Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: We're very excited to announce that Work Forces has its own home, workforces.info. Please check out the site and join our growing community. Now, let's dive in.

Julian: On today's podcast, we're sitting down with John Colborn, Executive Director of Apprenticeships for America. AFA is a new national nonprofit, advancing apprenticeship as a model to expand opportunity for America's workers and employers. Prior to this role, John worked as a consultant at the intersection of workforce development, human services, and educational achievement, and supported clients including National Trade Associations, philanthropy, and workforce and education nonprofits. John also served as chief operating officer at JEVS Human Services, a multifaceted nonprofit organization serving the greater Philadelphia region. In this role, he oversaw the organization's efforts to enhance opportunities for 25,000 plus young people and adults annually. John has over 30 years of experience with community-based and national nonprofits, including the Aspen Institute, Ford Foundation, and Philadelphia-based Reinvestment Fund. He holds a BA from Oberlin College and an MBA from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. Thank you for joining us today, John.

John Colborn: It's great to be here.

Kaitlin: Yes, John, it's great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on this podcast with us today. And though we just gave your bio, we would love to hear more about your background and how you approach your work in your own words.

John: My entire career has always been about advancing opportunity. And I've done that in a variety of contexts. I've done that in local contexts, working at the neighborhood level and community level. I've done that at the national level. And I have to say, I went through a certain evolution in my own thinking about economic opportunity. I started really thinking about place-based strategies and how communities and neighborhoods can seek to find economic opportunity for the community and for the residents there. But over time I really came to believe that we could build nice houses and people could still be poor. We could build great neighborhoods but people could still be poor. And the real key, at least in my thinking, towards building economic opportunity is about giving folks or providing avenues for folks to get the education, skills, training, and economic opportunity they need to be able to earn a decent living. And so that's really been the focus of my entire career. And it's just been a privilege to be able to do that in various contexts.

Julian: For level setting, and for our listeners, what are apprenticeships? And what's the state of play of apprenticeships in the US historically and present day?

John: Apprenticeships are not a new idea. In fact, they're a very old idea. They go back to America's founding. George Washington was an apprentice surveyor. We've had this notion of earning and learning together from the very, very beginning. But unlike other countries, we haven't really developed that into a formal structure for how people can advance in their careers or how young people can enter the labor market. We've just lagged behind. The one place that we've done that pretty effectively has been in the trades. And so when I'm speaking to people about apprenticeship, and I asked them, what's the image in your mind? Most people will say it's my plumber, it's the contractor I brought in, it's the carpenter who's doing work on a job. And indeed that has been the focus of a lot of our apprenticeship work in this country for a long, long time. But in the last 10, 15 years, there's really been a renaissance in thinking around apprenticeship. First off, thinking about apprenticeship as a tool that can be used in many different industries and many different occupations, really taking a page from the experience of other countries. And then also recognizing that apprenticeship offers an alternative to a sort of college-only approach to the on-ramp to careers and to occupations. And so those two things together, I think, have really encouraged folks to get a second look at apprenticeship. Now let me just say apprenticeship can come in many different shapes and sizes but let me give you the official registered apprenticeship definition. So first off apprenticeships are a job. They're not a training program, they're a job and so when you're engaged in an apprenticeship you're getting a paycheck, you're expected to work, there's probably a schedule associated with that, and at growing levels of capacity as your skills grow, you will be contributing to the organization that's hired you. The second thing about an apprenticeship is that it's really built on two learning approaches. The first is learning on the job. And so that's really about having a structured way to be able to use the experience that you're having at work to build the skills and capabilities you need to be successful. And then also a classroom component. So recognizing that not everything necessarily can be learned on the job, there's probably a theory or other kinds of skills that can be built in a classroom. So it's a job, it's education at work, it's education in a classroom, and then generally apprenticeships are set up with a mentor in mind. So the idea being that seasoned and experienced workers in that occupation can offer avenues to be able to support and nurture the ability of the individual to be successful. And then the final key definition of a registered apprenticeship anyway is that there's a path of wage progression through the apprenticeship program. So you might start at a lower wage than a seasoned, already skilled individual in a particular occupation. But eventually you will grow over the course of the apprenticeship, generally a year or two, sometimes a little longer, to a wage that's equal to that seasoned and trained worker.

Kaitlin: Great. Well, thank you so much for providing that introductory overview of the world of apprenticeships in the U.S. I'm wondering, if we broaden or take the lens out a bit and think about international examples, what are some best practices you're seeing in the apprenticeship space? How can we draw upon them or how are we drawing upon those examples in the US now?

John: Apprenticeship for America is really founded with the idea that we have this great idea, this great practice that has not scaled in this country. And part of the founding of the organization was really an analysis of what was holding the United States back from having the same kind of market penetration, the same kind of opportunities available for people in apprenticeship that other countries offer. And really, there's, I don't mean to oversimplify it, but really there's sort of three things that rose to the top in that analysis. The first is that every country that has significantly grown its practice of apprenticeship has invested in apprenticeship. And in the United States, we are woefully under-invested in apprenticeship. For the last 50 years, we've really decided that college was the way for people to find economic opportunity. And we've invested heavily in it, but we've under invested in other pathways to the point now that we invest about a thousand to one in terms of college versus apprenticeship support. We invest in individual college students at the rate of $50 for every dollar that we invest in apprentices. So with that imbalance, it's not that surprising that we've ended up with a nascent or underperforming apprenticeship sector. The second thing that's really been central to the growth of apprenticeship in other countries has been a set of institutions and organizations that really create an ecosystem around apprenticeship. This notion that an individual employer will fill out all the forms, put into place the educational programs, find the structures for mentoring, build the skills and capability matrix that they can measure an individual apprenticeship, apprentice against, design the wage progression plan, do all the things that are necessary to run an apprenticeship. It's just not realistic. Employers have businesses to run. And so what has developed in other countries is a set of organizations that really help businesses through those kinds of challenges and then are also specialized in working to ensure that apprentices are successful in their apprenticeship. And so building out this network of apprenticeship intermediaries is really central to the growth of apprenticeships in the United States. And the third thing is that we have a fairly limited view of what apprenticeship can and could do for this country. And so we have a communications challenge and that's a communications challenge that extends from policymakers to employers to workers to parents of young people entering the labor market. There are a series of challenges that we have in terms of being clear about exactly what the opportunity can be. And so those are really the three things that define the work of Apprenticeships for America, and we think will be necessary in order to grow apprenticeship.

Kaitlin: So building on that last point, John, I'm curious to hear a little bit more about the cultural shift associated with moving toward apprenticeships. I know you mentioned a communications challenge, but it seems like part of it's also how we think about apprenticeships. And when we think about the various pathways that are afforded to Americans to, and frankly, learners throughout the world that were focused on the US in this conversation. What are those pathways that are available and the fact that there are so, there are many and that there should be many. I'm just curious, you know, what you're thinking about there or what you're seeing around that cultural shift.

John: Yeah, absolutely. And there is something new out there, right? I think that there's a little bit of disaffection with the current higher education, so traditional higher education system that's been driven by a sense of overwhelming costs that leaves people in debt, or, and or, driven by a sense that the learning and the educational experience that people are getting in higher education is not necessarily relevant to their careers or their earning capabilities going forward. And so that level of disaffection has, I think, led people to look, oh, and I should say one other thing, is that there's just a fundamental inequality that's built into our higher education system. As much as we try to build more equitable systems within higher education institutions, we end up with an economic sorting that happens through our higher education system. And so with all of that sort of at play, I think policymakers, workers and employers are starting to ask, you know, what's the alternative? Are there ways to get to this economic opportunity objective without leaning so heavily on a college-only approach. And by the way, I should just say, I think somebody who wants to go to college should absolutely go to college. I think everyone should have an opportunity to pursue the education and careers that they aspire to. But I don't think we should be limiting folks to one path or another. I think providing people multiple paths is the surest way to be able to advance economic opportunity. So I think the table in some ways has been set around looking for alternatives. And there's another dynamic at play, which is that the nature of work and how hiring happens in this country has shifted. When I started in workforce development, you could plausibly sit down with a couple of employers, you map out what their skill needs were, you design a six week or 12 week or 16 week training program. And if you did the training right and you had the right relationships with employers and a little bit of support for folks once they got their job, you could have a successful workforce development program. Today, if you look at entry-level jobs, those entry-level jobs that I was trying to do that training for, often those entry-level jobs actually ask for experience. And so the notion that you could sort of, that you would build that experience on the job has shifted folks who have that background and experience. And of course, you know, apprenticeship is a good way to answer that problem because building experience is built right into the apprenticeship.

Julian: Absolutely, John. And you talked a little bit earlier about Apprenticeship for America's role. Can you dig a little bit deeper there? Like, you know, you're a new organization. I think people will be very interested to know what you're up to. I mean, I had the opportunity to attend your summit a few weeks ago, which was incredibly well attended and clearly, clearly fulfilling a need because there were folks from all over the country and national players. And so, you know, clearly there was a convening component to it, but I'd love to hear more about, you know, what you're up to and your plans.

John: Yeah. So, I mean, I think that that community of practice is really critical because if you remember, one of the things we identify as a need is building out these apprenticeship intermediaries and providing a community of practice for that group is absolutely central. At that conference, which was our first, and first of a series, we hope, the thing I heard over and over again is that there had never, that folks had never found a forum that was quite like this one. It was not just about how great apprenticeships are, that's a great thing, and we've all been to conferences, I've been to many conferences, where we've had the great introductory Apprenticeship 101 conference and what to do with it and why we should be doing more of it. But also now, how do we do it? How do we do it better? What are best practice approaches in apprenticeship? What are the operational constraints that we're grappling with? What are the particular sectoral contexts for how apprenticeships can be deployed in healthcare, in manufacturing, in IT? And that's just a conversation that's been hard to find elsewhere. And so providing a space for that, as well as building out a support ecosystem for the nation's apprenticeship intermediaries is a central piece of what Apprenticeships for America is all about. But that first thing that I said was our major barrier to the growth of apprenticeships, which is a public support strategy, is really our number one mission. And so we see ourselves working at the federal level and in states to help design and act and implement policies that are supportive of apprenticeship. And I should just say that can take many different forms. You know, probably our central tenet is really the idea that there should be a paid for apprenticeships funding system. So we're not constantly putting together apprenticeship programs that depend on two and three-year grants that come from the state government or from the federal government, but there is a regular and predictable funding mechanism that supports apprenticeships in the same way that we've designed our funding for higher education. You don't go to school with a, well, actually some of us do go to school with two-year grants and then try to figure out how the third and fourth year are gonna get funded. But certainly the colleges and universities are not funded that way. They don't open their doors with two years of funding and then hope that there's gonna be funding to graduate people. So we need that predictable funding mechanism. But there's a whole series of other things, supports for employers who are engaged in apprenticeship, using the power of government to encourage apprenticeship among its own workforce and among contractors, ensuring that there's alignment between workforce development, education, systems to support apprenticeship activity, connecting apprenticeship to industrial policy like our CHIPS Act to make sure that we're using apprenticeship and in ways to build the talent that's necessary to drive critical industries in this country. There's a whole range of different things that are out there that are going to be critical to the growth of apprenticeship in this country. And we seek to advocate for that identify those those opportunities and advocate for them.

Julian: John, are there particular models that you're excited about?

John: So let me look internationally, and then let me look domestically. So on the international side, I think while we're still really looking to learn more about apprenticeship, we know that in countries that look a lot like ours, and let me just say parenthetically, there's been a lot of looking at the Germanic apprenticeship systems. And they're great. They're amazing. But they're also rooted in a set of industrial arrangements that just we don't have here. And it's really hard to sort of conceive of how you take some of the Swiss or the Germanic models around apprenticeship and lay them down in the United States. But in countries that look a lot more like us, we're seeing how a concerted investment effort and a prioritization around apprenticeship can have dramatic results. And so whether that's in England, in France, where the implementation of apprenticeship had a measurable impact on youth unemployment rates in that country. In Australia, we have seen these countries investing in apprenticeship in Canada. We are seeing countries invest in apprenticeship and get much better results than we get here in the United States. That being said, there's certainly pockets of opportunity and innovation going on here in the United States. So we in particular are very excited about the Apprenticeship Innovation Fund in California, the first really scaled pay for apprenticeship effort that's out there and that provides operatives of apprenticeship programs with the kind of predictable funding mechanism that we've been advocating for. And California's early experience there has been really helpful in terms of looking at how to design those programs and at the potential impact that they can have.

Kaitlin: Great. It's really helpful to hear what you're seeing and what you're drawing from and is around best practices and models that we think we can learn from as this movement continues to grow and expand. Based on your lessons learned in this space, John, what are some practical steps our audience can take to become forces when it comes to apprenticeships?

John: So the first thing I would just say is that there are many pathways for different kinds of institutions to engage and support the development of apprenticeships in their communities. So whether you're a workforce board or community college, a workforce development practitioner, an employer, a labor union advocate, a community developer. There's many different ways for folks to engage in apprenticeship. I think that the first thing that I would say is start with the notion that short-term training programs, the sort of train and pray approach, and the college-only approach to economic opportunity are not the limited horizon that we have to work with. That there are many different ways to think about engaging in that and that apprenticeship appropriately should be one of them. Not for every institution, not for every, I should say not for every industry and every occupation, but I think it's a tool that's worth learning more about and a tool that's worth exploring in particular contexts. That's sort of number one. Number two is to make sure that the institution that you're operating in is building an environment where apprenticeship can be one of those tools you're providing. So if you're in a community college, you know that you can be a really critical part of that classroom experience in apprenticeship. And maybe even more, we're actually just doing a study with some of the leading community college practitioners in apprenticeship right now. And they are engaged in a wide range of supportive activities around apprenticeship. If you're a workforce development board, we've seen over and over again the power of boards to be able to use their convening power to organize employers and to focus attention on opportunities for apprenticeship, to be able to use their one-stop systems as recruitment tools for folks who might be appropriate for apprenticeship programs, and then to be able to use their funding mechanisms to be able to support apprenticeships. Again, because of the way they're funded, it'll be the short-term funding that we're not big fans of, but is really part of the pump priming exercise around apprenticeship. And then, of course, if you're an employer and you're experiencing talent challenges, to look at apprenticeship as one way to address some of those challenges. And I'll just say, I think, as we are moving forward towards a world where there are, a country where there may be more apprentices in the United States, we're gonna need a lot of these apprenticeship intermediaries out there. We suspect we're gonna need something on the order of four or five times the number we currently have. And if that's gonna be the case, then I think it's appropriate to learn more about what apprenticeship intermediaries can do, and to think about whether that's an appropriate business model for your organization.

Julian: So John, just as a follow up there, can you speak a little bit more? There was a lot of talk about apprenticeship intermediaries at your summit. You know, Ryan Craig in Apprenticeship Nation has written quite extensively, drawing a lot on the work that's been done overseas. Can you just speak? And I know that they kind of come in various shapes and sizes and different types of organizations, service intermediaries. Can you give sort of a one-on-one overview of what that even means?

John: And I should say we are not at all doctrinaire about this. There's not one way to do apprenticeship intermediaries. Context matters a lot, depending on the environment you're working in, the industry you're working in, all of that. But there seem to be a set of functions, core functions, that really do work to enable apprenticeship. So the first is an organization that can be a solutions provider for the employer, who can help with conceptualizing and designing what apprenticeship might look like, who can help with the registration process around apprenticeship, who can help connect apprentices with the training providers that are part of that classroom instruction piece, and who can help with the administration and tracking of apprentices through the program. Many times these intermediaries operate in what's called a group apprenticeship structure, which means that they register one apprenticeship with the Department of Labor, with the state, and then they bring multiple employers into that apprenticeship program. And in that way are able to sort of spread the cost of that apprenticeship over multiple employers. So that's the most common way that apprenticeship intermediaries operate. And then I should say there's a further level of apprenticeship intermediary that's out there, what we call the high intensity or high intensity apprenticeship intermediary. And these folks not only take on the design and development of apprenticeships and help manage them, but they actually take on the employment function as well. And in that way are able to deploy apprentices out to individual employers sometimes, but oftentimes out to multiple employers over the course of an apprenticeship. And that works well, particularly in industries that are very project-driven or gig-driven. And it really takes a page from the highly successful apprenticeship experience in organized labor, where folks rely on the union to sort of organize multiple employment experiences over the course of their apprenticeship.

Kaitlin: As we wind down our podcast today, John, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

John: Yeah, so it's really simple. Come to our website, apprenticeshipsforamerica.org. You can sign up to be on our mailing list. We send out every two weeks a little e-digest that will be the roundup of news around apprenticeships in the country and also give you updates on what's happening in the policy world around apprenticeship. So love to have your participation. It's really easy to join Apprenticeships for America. Our membership is free. And by joining, you get to be part of a community of practitioners, participate in conferences, and be the beneficiary of research studies and reports that we're authoring. And of course, it helps shape our policy agenda. And then I would just say it's not all about Apprenticeships for America. There are many opportunities to be supportive of apprenticeship in other ways. Many regions have local regional apprenticeship advocacy organizations and networking organizations. And so I encourage you to look for those in your region, often connected, but not always connected to the local workforce board. And then finally, you know, just just take time to learn a little bit about it. I think once you start exploring what's out there in the world of apprenticeship, recognizing that it's not just a tool for the construction trades, but being used in multiple contexts, you'll be hooked, I promise. And there'll be more for you to learn and do.

Kaitlin: Great, well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today, John. I hope our listeners will gain as much from this as I have.

John: It's great to be here.

Julian: Thank you so much, John.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify. Please subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.