#69: Dating Safety, with Kelly Gagalis

Love Is Us: Exploring Relationships and How We Connect

If you're dating, this episode is for you! My guest, Kelly Gagalis, recently created a dating safety program called "Swipe Safely" in order to help more women (and gay men) understand how they can take steps to protect themselves so they can enjoy the rewards dating has to offer.

Kelly Gagalis is a Marriage and Family Therapist with over 15 years coaching experience. For the past 17 years Kelly has been a monthly ABC TV dating and relationship contributor. Kelly successfully helps people create safety navigating online dating and rehabilitate their dating game to find a partner who is a phenomenal fit for them.

For more information about Kelly and her Swipe Safely program:

Dating safety program: www.swipesafely.com

Website: https://www.kellymariehoffman.com/

Follow Karin on Instagram:

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Psilocybin Facilitation

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

Episode:

Karin: Hello, everybody, and welcome. Today we're going to be talking about dating safety with my guest, Kelly Gagalis. I'm hoping that I'm pronouncing that right. Anyway, Kelly is a long term therapist and dating coach. She really knows her stuff and she is going to be helping us understand what we might need to know when it comes to dating and dating safety. I think that this is a really good episode for anyone who might be dating, but especially those who maybe have been out of the dating scene for a while. Maybe you were married for a long time or in a long term relationship, and now you are dating once again. And, you know, a lot of us as we get older, we think we know how to take care of ourselves, and we do for the most part. But the thing is, is that things have changed in the way that we date and in the way that we get to know people, especially with online dating. So I think that this is a really good one to listen to. Kelly is also just about to launch her swipe safely dating program, which seems to be very unique and very helpful. So if you're interested in that, go ahead and check out her website and get on her. I think she's got a waiting list for that program at this point. So anyway, in the episode we do talk about dating safety. We also talk a little bit about dating in general. So I think it's a really, really interesting one. And I'm glad you're here. And if you are in the Pacific Northwest or somewhere in the west coast dealing with all this heat right now, it's July as I'm recording this and about to launch this episode. So I hope you're taking care of yourself. I hope you can check in on any elderly neighbors and take care of your pets and kids, and I hope that you are taking care of yourself and staying cool. All right. Thanks again for being here. And here we go. Welcome, Kelly.

[03:00] Kelly: Hi, Karin. It's great to be here.

[03:02] Karin: Oh, it's so nice to have you here. Kelly and I have been talking about lots of other things other than the topic of the episode today already and having a lot of fun doing it. Kelly's another local, so I'm super excited about that. But tell us where local is for you.

[03:25] Kelly: Yeah, local is Portland, Oregon, very close to where you are, which is really fun. We moved here as a family about 17 years ago, and it's just been a really great place. Really enjoyed a lot of what Portland is and is about. It's really safe, really fun, really awesome.

[03:46] Karin: Where did you move from?

[03:48] Kelly: I'm from Massachusetts. I was in grad school in Utah, and then my former spouse and I moved here after grad school. It had the demographic we needed to start the business he wanted to start, and it's just been really good to us all the way around.

[04:03] Karin: Nice. And what do you do for work?

[04:07] Kelly: So I have, gosh, like, since I graduated with an MS in marriage and family therapy, and I did that for a little bit, but I transitioned about, gosh, 1012 years ago into exclusively doing dating coaching. So I kind of work with men and women, helping them get their dating life dialed in so that they could find a partner that's usually. People usually want help dating coaching when they can't find someone to be with. Right. It's not like any other situation, so. But more recently, I've transitioned. I still do dating coaching, but right now, my. My message, my mission is the stuff that I've learned over the ten plus years of doing dating coaching for safety. Like, nobody else is teaching it, nobody else is talking about it. And I kind of came up with a system for my clients, and I'm realizing, oh, my gosh, nobody else knows how to do this. When I talk to girlfriends, when I go to parties, people tell me stuff, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so scary. This is not safe, and you don't know it. So that's kind of what I'm doing now.

[05:10] Karin: I feel like we need to walk this line of not scaring people about dating, because dating can.

[05:19] Kelly: 99% of the people on there are great, normal, you know, with their quirks, people that aren't going to hurt you. Yes. Right.

[05:27] Karin: And it can bring us love. So that's really important. And it's important for people to be informed.

[05:34] Kelly: Absolutely. And I love that you started with that, because my whole goal is not to scare anyone. It's to move everyone from a an unaware prey mindset to a. Just a grounded, confident. This, you know, it's going to be hard to mess with me mindset. It's really as simple as. And it honestly, it goes hand in hand with getting a better level of relationship when you're harder to access, when you have more boundaries, when you have more clarity, it's going to speak to a higher level of person.

[06:09] Karin: Yeah. Yeah. And so you primarily work with women, right. For obvious reasons, yeah.

[06:17] Kelly: But a lot of men don't feel the need for a dating coach, which is totally fine. Women are just more open to being coached, I found, anyway. And that's. I've worked with men. I have worked with very coachable, lovely men just en masse, which is kind of what I do. Women sign up, but for safety reasons.

[06:37] Karin: It's usually men don't feel the need for any kind of coaching around that specifically, unless we're talking about gay men. And they might.

[06:46] Kelly: Yes, gay men. It's very much an issue. There's a lot of unsafety in the gay dating culture, for sure. For men, not as much. From what I've heard from my friends who are lesbian and in the lesbian dating community, it's not as unsafe for the same reasons. It might get unsafe later, but it's not initially unsafe. It's not assault unsafe as much men. It is actually. Men can get stalked and have their life disturbed, but because they're used to being the top of the food chain and they're thinking more about they're safe because they feel physically safe, they're not thinking about what would it be like if this random person that I connected with and gave my information to stalked me for two years and made my life a living hell? Like, they don't. They're not thinking about that because they're not used to being on the receiving end of that, but it is a reality for men. They're just not as aware of it. Yeah.

[07:36] Karin: And then I don't know if you've ever seen the mini series or the. What is it? Baby reindeer.

[07:43] Kelly: Yes, baby reindeer. That was even better. There's another one on Netflix that's another true story about someone being stalked for 15 years by someone.

[07:52] Karin: Yeah, baby reindeer blew my mind.

[07:55] Kelly: Yes.

[07:56] Karin: And that, of course, is a woman stalking a man.

[07:58] Kelly: Yes. Yeah. You can do a lot of psychological damage and create a lack of safety and ruin relationships and make the rest of your family feel unsafe without ever breaking the law. Right. And women that want to do this have the power to do it. So it's unsafe for men, it's unsafe for women in different ways.

[08:17] Karin: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you come to do this work? Specifically, what made you motivated to do it?

[08:24] Kelly: So when I was a therapist, and I really loved supporting people and helping them through trauma or the things that were holding them back, but we got there pretty quickly, and then everyone that was single would be like, hey, now that I feel like I've really got this under control, I need to find someone. Can you help me find someone? And interestingly, I had developed this way of dating because my dating life wasn't working. And I was like, well, here's what I did. And then over the years, I tweaked it, and I realized when I would meet with couples, a lot of times I'm like, oh, I wish they had done my dating procedure because they probably wouldn't have ended up married. These people are mismatched and misaligned, and that's why they're in, and that's why they're in couples therapy. Not always, but sometimes it just kind of was like this feeling of, I really could do some good if I help people. Your highest indicator for happiness is who you choose to spend your life with, who you choose to partner with. And so to ease suffering and humanity, if I can help people make great choices and stay safe, I'm going to alleviate a lot of potential future suffering. And that was what brought me there.

[09:32] Karin: Yeah. And you've heard some horror stories, too.

[09:35] Kelly: I have. I don't know how much you want to go into that, but, yeah, there's been some very, very distressing things that I've heard and been witness to and just want to stop with what I'm teaching in. Swipe safely, for sure.

[09:50] Karin: Wonderful. So what makes online dating more risky than traditional ways of dating people?

[09:57] Kelly: Well, and let's just kind of address the elephant in the room. Dating has always been risky, and as a culture, we've never addressed it. You and I were talking about how date rape was funny, even as far back as the conservative era where people more gentlemanly, quote unquote, like the Annette and Frankie movies had, like, girls, like, trying to get out of the car and men groping them as funny backdrop, as, like, the camera pan. Like, I remember that being something I grew up on loving, like the old. Like, I love the surfer movies and stuff, and there's just this kind of pervasive background, but I just want to interrupt you.

[10:33] Karin: And of course, it was. It's not at all funny, but that how it. That's how it is portrayed.

[10:38] Kelly: Exactly.

[10:38] Karin: In, like, the me in the media.

[10:40] Kelly: Yeah. And then, you know, and, you know, through the seventies movies, eighties movies, it's always been portrayed that there's this funny element to a woman being assaulted or uncomfortable. Right. And so, you know, there's that, that underlying prevalence of that in our culture, which is people are trying. Me too, and everything, trying to shift. It's a big thing to shift. But here with Internet, people can be whoever they choose to be for a certain period of time. And the reason why I feel that safety is so important with Internet dating is because you can create a deep feeling of intimacy over the phone and over text with someone, and the person on the other end has no way to validate and verify you are who you are. Right. With normal. So you kind of, you know, you go into a connection from a dating app, or even if you were to meet someone at a grocery store and you're connecting online, there's. We have so much ability to connect with people, but we don't really see, you know, it used to be we went to someone's house, we saw their reality. We met through friends. We could verify if what they were saying was true. Internet dating connections make it so that a veneer can be put up that really masks who somebody really is and what their truth really is.

[12:00] Karin: Yeah. And I think about all the people who are really unhappy with themselves or self conscious, and so they pretend to be something they're not because they don't think they'll otherwise be able to find someone. But then, of course, they don't really think through how that's going to lay out.

[12:16] Kelly: Right? Yeah, well, no, and, and like I said in the beginning, like, 99% of the time, it's going to be a really great person. Even if they're presenting themselves in a less than honest way, it's. They're presenting who they want to be. They're not. There's no malicious intent behind it. Yeah, it's. It's that, that. So we want to make sure that, like, swipe safely set up so that you can weed out someone that doesn't mean to be a jerk, but is misrepresenting or is someone that is emotionally unstable or unhealthy. You can see that before you put yourself in a situation where they know where you live and have gone on dates and they feel like you owe them something. Right.

[12:54] Karin: Yeah.

[12:55] Kelly: Or just. It keeps you from even meeting up with that person in the first place.

[12:59] Karin: Right, right. So what are some common mistakes that you see women making that they're really not even aware of.

[13:08] Kelly: Yeah. So the biggest thing is, you should never go to the other person's house or a house. Hey, come to my friend's house. They're having a party. They're having a bunch of people over. I have a dear friend whose son went on a date and went to pick up the man he was thinking he was going to go on a first date with and was pulled inside and gang raped, and then he was not treated seriously because he was a man and it was gay. And, you know, there's all that prejudice around it. So you're always a public place, and. And that's hard because people want to. People want every. Everyone on dating apps is like, there's got to be chemistry. There's got to be chemistry. And, like, everyone wants to do what they call chemistry checks. Well, you know, you don't want to be making out in public, so everybody kind of wants to go someplace private, but you just have to figure out how you're going to keep from doing that until you really know who someone is. Because once you're behind a closed door, there's really no way anybody can know that you're in distress. And honestly, it would be very easy for someone, if you were in distress, for someone to play it off. Like, for someone to roof you a drink, that's usually someone under 30, that can happen. But you just look like someone that got a little too drunk. You just look like someone that was sick and your caring, loving boyfriend was helping you to the car. Right. So. So really being aware without being scared, just being aware that, hey, these things can happen. And the right person for me is going to respect my boundary when I say, hey, I'm only drinking water. Hey, I'm. I don't feel comfortable going with you, even though it's your friend's party. Maybe after, you know, we. I go out a few times with your friends or something, and, like, then you're kind of verifying they are who they are.

[15:01] Karin: Yeah. Yeah. Anything else?

[15:05] Kelly: I think the biggest thing is giving. Don't give out your phone number. Do something. Like, do something different. I don't care if it's WhatsApp. I don't care if it's Google voice. Don't give out your phone number. Because the minute you. And this is for you guys, too. There's something called true people finder. If you put in a phone number for a very minimal price, it's like $7 a month or something, you can look people up and see where they live, what their history is. What their job. Find out a lot of information about someone. If you exist, you're on the Internet and there's ways for people to find out about it if you give that personal information. So you don't just. If there's one thing that will keep everyone safe, meet in public for the first month, meet their friends and don't give out your phone number.

[15:48] Karin: Yeah, that's good information about the phone number. It's not something I would have necessarily thought about. That they can look you up and get all kinds of information about you.

[15:56] Kelly: They can. And the other thing that happens and people aren't as aware of this, and this is a little more like psychological. When someone's name shows up in between mom and your best friend, there is a bleed over of trust that they are earning just because they're a name in between mom and your best friend that they haven't actually earned. And, like, I don't know of any studies on this. I just know that it's happened for me. I've asked my friends about it, and I noticed that if I keep who I'm dating separate, then I'm really more able to evaluate them for who they are. And they're not popping up throughout my day. And you're less susceptible to love bombing. You're just, they're just not showing up as someone that's a fixture in your day that you can get addicted to those little notices. Right. Because every time you get that little ping, it releases. Not serotonin. What's the other one?

[16:48] Karin: Oxytocin. Yeah. Sense. I mean, I can understand how that would work. And I don't know what, you know, the word for that or the.

[16:57] Kelly: I don't either term for that would be.

[17:00] Karin: But, yeah, I can imagine when they just show up on your phone along with all those other people you care.

[17:05] Kelly: About that I call it rub off trust. It's just like, it just rubs off, you know, it's like the trust just bleeds over.

[17:14] Karin: Yeah. That's so interesting.

[17:16] Kelly: You know, and then, and then what happens is if they're not a good fit, then you end up with, like, this cluttered phone list. And it's so much harder because then people are like, they want to block someone versus, if you just have it just like, just keep. Keep it tidy, you know, so it's. It's, it's not this big. Like, it's a big deal amongst your real friends. The people that, you know, to block someone takes a lot of effort, and it shouldn't take that much effort to block or stop responding to someone that you've just met online. But if you put them in your own phone contacts, that reluctance you have to disassociate from someone who's in your true field of friendship is going to bleed over into your and become reluctance to disassociate from someone that really shouldn't have that higher level of connection and trust, but is just benefiting from the fact that, like, they're, they're in the trust box and they didn't earn it.

[18:11] Karin: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So what are some red flags?

[18:18] Kelly: A good red flag is anyone that has insistence, they insist on doing it their way in a certain timeframe. And one thing as a woman we have to make sure is like, oh, this just happened to me a couple weeks ago. Sometimes I do this so often and I feel like I know what I'm doing and I, what you call it, like, you know, I don't have to question myself. And whenever I feel myself feeling that, I'm like, okay, you need to make sure that you're not just thinking you're better at this than you are. So I connected with two people that I got the vibe that they weren't going to be a good fit, that there was something off, right? I'm like, okay, I'm going to test it. And so I was actually thinking, oh, maybe I was wrong with this one person. We were having a great conversation. There was a couple things that were yellow flags, but I was like, you know, like, maybe, you know, maybe we just meet for a cup of coffee and I just check it out. And maybe, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm just being curious. And I had, it was my son's graduation. I had family in town. And when I said, hey, this has been a great conversation. I would love to meet with you next week. I'm really not available this week. It's my son's graduation. So in town, he immediately got insistent and said, that doesn't work for me. Why won't you meet me tomorrow? And it's so funny, I do this for a living. And I started justifying myself instead of just being like, whoa, this is, you know, a nice, normal person is just going to be like, oh, that's disappointing. But, you know, that does work for me. That doesn't work for me. If you don't want to meet up, you know, this week, then I don't want to really. Whatever he was, but he was, why are you scared to meet me? And he was like, being belligerent and I was like, okay, I'm just going to see where this goes. But I was like, hey, you know, like, for me, this is a date. This isn't a pop out for a half hour, and I've got friends and family in town and I'm not going to prioritize someone. I don't know, you know, just kind of trying to educate him and see where it goes. And he just got escalated, escalated and more angry and then ended up hanging up on me and I was like, oh, this is so interesting. Like, okay, number one, I can trust myself. But red flags are really when somebody, when you give someone a no, I guess this is the best way to put it. When you tell someone no, but let's do it this way. And they get upset at you, how they respond to your no in the beginning is a template for most likely how they're going to respond to your no later. And respond like, giving someone a no is a really good predictor of how they're going to act in the future. So red flags are when people do not respond well to your no in any situation. And I even went into, like, I like, well, maybe this or maybe that. Like, no, this is. He was showing you who he was. You know, I could see where it would come from, insecurity or, you know, I could see all the reasons, but it doesn't matter. I'm not going to go on a date with someone that can't listen to my no. That's, that's the first safety check.

[21:10] Karin: Yeah.

[21:11] Kelly: That they have to meet.

[21:12] Karin: Yeah, it sounds like you really dug in. Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[21:17] Kelly: A red flag and similar to that somebody. So then somebody similar, I was talking with them and they were pushing me to meet and it was during this really busy time. And I'm like, hey, I really don't have the time to meet. If you want to meet next week, I'd be open to it. I was going to type that in and they, they just, they put another, they sent another thing while I was typing it up. And I'm like, you know what? This is, this someone is, this person is pushing. I'm like, so I was like, hey, you know what? I think this isn't going to work for me. We hadn't even talked on the phone. We bit, we just matched. We only had like five or six on the app, back and forth, text bubbles. Like, so this wasn't like, I just don't think this is going to work. You seem like a great person, but, you know, I'm just getting the vibe that we're just not match our pacing, and I don't have as much free time as you're wanting for me to. And he was angry and wrote back, like, how dare you waste my time? You know, that's 45 minutes I'll never get back. Just this entitled feeling, like, if you match with me, then you owe me. So anybody that's telling you that you owe them or that you have an obligation because they've invested time in you is someone that's really, really in their own, serving their own needs, and that's a red flag for narcissism or just. Just being lacking in empathy, which is the number one cause of hurting other people, is a lack of empathy.

[22:37] Karin: Right. And you also said the word pacing, and I think that's an important concept for people to know while they're dating. Could you tell. Tell us a little bit about that?

[22:47] Kelly: Yeah. No. So it's not an accident that I told both of those people that I didn't want to meet up first, because I do recommend pacing. I went out with someone that I later that, like, two days later, I'm like, something's up. And I went out with him on the same day, and it turns out he was in town for the weekend and he was looking to cheat on his wife. Like, I found out through Facebook and stuff. Right. And so pacing is a really good way to learn, and so you have to do it in a particular way that's going to be inviting and delightful to people that do want to connect but is going to be a deterrent to people that, like, just, like, want to get you connected as soon as possible. So pacing is the process of telling someone no, because it doesn't work for you. Right. But leading and being the leader of how quickly we're going to connect in a way that doesn't compromise your safety. But also, I feel like as a society, we've been taught that it's okay. Like, no, you're crossing my boundaries. Do this rough, aggressive. No. Versus the calm, grounded. Hey, this doesn't work for me. No. And watch what the other person does. I did calm, grounded nose, and the two people that I was talking about spun out. I've done those same calm, grounded nose with guys that I've gone out with and had a great time. They were lovely company and they responded beautifully to that. That's a huge way to weed out, to see the flags raise. Like, you. You want to pop the flags. If there's a flag you want to pop it. And it's either going to be green or red. You know, that there's just. Yeah, yeah.

[24:17] Karin: And you want to be with someone who can respect boundaries. And so if they're giving you that information right up front. Believe that.

[24:28] Kelly: Exactly.

[24:29] Karin: Yeah.

[24:30] Kelly: And I just want to say, this is actually, I have swiped safely out, but I'm going to be. This is not a promotion, but, like, nobody teaches anyone how to set boundaries really well. And my treatise on that is we've taught people that when you put up a fence, it's a boundary, and if someone crosses over your fence, you're allowed to get mad at them and push them back off your property. That's what we've taught for boundaries. The best boundary setters are the people that have a pathway that's clear on their property, that's delineated for where it's permissible to walk, and they have clearly posted signs, hey, please stay on the pathway. And they will kind of tell you, hey, you're not on the pathway. And they'll say it in a curious, non angry way. Those people are freaking phenomenal at setting boundaries. So make sure that you learn how to set boundaries and you recognize the hallmarks of someone that's good at setting boundaries. And I just give that as an I will eventually do a boundaries thing, but that's not what I'm doing right now. So that's the second level of safety. Safety really is all about setting delightful boundaries, because we can all set a boundary and kick someone out, but who wants to be in a relationship with someone that only knows how to kick you out? Right. You want to be warned. You want to be given the benefit of the doubt and taught what works for the other person in a lovely way.

[25:48] Karin: Yeah.

[25:49] Kelly: Yeah.

[25:49] Karin: And I would call that rigid boundaries.

[25:51] Kelly: Yeah.

[25:51] Karin: Yeah. And that's something that I've. I've done a lot of work around. And I call it compassionate boundaries.

[25:57] Kelly: Oh, perfect. So then they need to go to your website and learn how to do it. Fabulous. As long as someone's teaching, because I've never. I'm. I'm so glad you're teaching, because I've never. I've been a therapist for 20 years, and I've. I've heard all about boundaries, and I've never heard somebody teach the progression of it. So I love that you're doing that, Karen.

[26:15] Karin: Yeah. And, I mean, it's.

[26:16] Kelly: It's.

[26:16] Karin: It should be a way of, um. Of saying, this is the gate. This is the gate to come in to connect people, rather than creating barriers to relationships. So. Absolutely.

[26:28] Kelly: And your green flies you're looking for is like, oh, thanks for showing me the path. And somebody can say, you know what? That path is too narrow for me. You're lovely, but that boundary doesn't work. And it's not that there's anything wrong with you. It's a, you know, like, you have someone that likes to bigger pathway. That's totally fine. You don't have to be everything for everyone. I think the biggest safety thing is stop trying to force yourself into another person's mold. You're you. Just be you, and you find the person that's like, oh, that's cool. I want that. I want Karen, I want Kelly, I want whoever beautiful person, beautiful human that's listening to this. Just the way you are.

[27:05] Karin: Yeah.

[27:05] Kelly: With boundaries and all.

[27:06] Karin: And I love the way you said that. Yeah. Wider paths are narrower paths.

[27:10] Kelly: Yeah.

[27:11] Karin: So walk us through a dating scenario from, like, deciding to sign up on a dating app to maybe, you know, a couple dates in. You know, what are some good choices that people can make?

[27:25] Kelly: Oh, gosh, great choices to make is to acknowledge chemistry and don't lean into it. It's. You want it. Like, who doesn't want to be in a sexually vibrant relationship? Unless, like, your hormones have shifted and you're like, okay, I have a lot of girlfriends that are married, and that's happened to, and that's totally fine, but if you're not, like, and it's still something that you want to be vibrant, hooray. I am not. I'm not here to be a prude or tell anyone not to be sexual, but can we please make sure we're not. There is nothing more vulnerable for any human than to be coitus. Like, there's your senses. Like, you could, you're very compromised. So can we please vet evaluate that? As delicious as the kissing feels like it's going to be with someone, that it feels just as delicious to have a conversation with them. Just as delicious to go take a walk with them when you have verified it. We don't want to be going on walks in the woods with strangers. There's a whole protocol around that. But I can't teach everyone right now. For now, just don't. Let's make sure that chemistry isn't leading us to open up and be vulnerable mentally, emotionally, and physically to someone that doesn't have the ability to cherish us, period.

[28:51] Karin: Yeah.

[28:52] Kelly: Because what will happen is we want that feeling, that payoff of that chemistry, and then we start compromising pieces of ourselves so that the other person wants to stay with us or be with us, and we'll put up with behavior because the payoff feels so good. So let's not get to that addictive chemistry part until everything else feels good, and then it's. Then it's amazing, right?

[29:17] Karin: Yeah.

[29:17] Kelly: That's what we all want, right?

[29:19] Karin: Anything else? Is there anything that people should do even before they sign up on a dating app?

[29:25] Kelly: Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing is don't use your phone number. Google voice works fine. It's not perfect. And there's some. You lose some ability to, like, you can't. You can't respond to. You can't, like, a message or those reactions. Yeah, the reactions and stuff. But. But what you gain in safety is completely worth it. And you can tell people, like, this is actually the number that I give out when I'm meeting strange men, people, women off the Internet. Like, honestly, if someone said that to me, I've got respect. I'm like, good for you. Like, I am a strange person off the Internet. I don't. If I'm looking for a partner, I don't want someone that's like, dodie do do do, you know, just not looking out for their own interests. So, you know, I remember Joe Rogan, and I've never really listened to anybody's podcast, but I caught it. My son was showing me a clip, and he was like, what I really admire about my wife, you know, and this is, you know, this guy that's into masculine stuff. Like, she's so disciplined. I'm like, cool. Like that. That was what he was. Not how hot she was or her parent or who she was as a wife or a mother is that she was disciplined like you will be when you start having great boundaries and respect for yourself. The people that sit up and take notice have boundaries and respect for themselves, and they recognize it. The biggest thing is undo your programming. Acknowledge that you've got this programming of thinking you're safe and you're not. And it doesn't change that it's there whether or not you acknowledge it. But let's just acknowledge it and do the things that keep us safe and not. And not just bury our head in the sand at the same time. Have fun.

[31:12] Karin: Yeah.

[31:13] Kelly: You shouldn't know on the first date if you're going to be with someone. I remember Josh Wolf is a comedian that said from the first date, he and his wife married for, like, 18 years, and they're absolutely lovely together. And he said, I knew from the first date, but he didn't introduce her to his kids for six months. Like, you still. You still put those boundaries in place even when it feels right.

[31:35] Karin: Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is just really important information, especially for women of our generation and who might have been married for a long time and then. Which so happened. Happened so frequently, is that in midlife, they divorced, and then now they're in the dating pool again. And dating is very different than what it was when you and I were 18 or even 25.

[32:06] Kelly: Yeah, well, and my treatise on that is we actually don't even have a culture of dating in our country anymore. We have a culture, and it starts in middle school. And I think it's just in middle school, you go out with someone, right. This is what my kids experience and I experienced even back to the eighties. And it's okay. You're not slutty. You're not shamed. If you kiss or even do things in the confines of that quote unquote relationship, someone that you had a crush on because they were two seats in front of you and you know nothing about. Right. But as a woman or even a guy, if you break up with them two weeks later because maybe they were being mean to you, you're the slut. Right. Of. And so our dating culture is built around getting in a relationship and making it work without knowing anything about the other person. And for me, my personal crusade, not only in physical safety, is emotional safety. You need to date. Like, really date, not sleep around. But you can do that if you want. I'm not going to judge you, but go. Like, no one says my favorite ice cream is vanilla when they've never tried any other flavor. That's ridiculous. And not that there's anything wrong with vanilla. That's my favorite flavor, too. But you need some comparison. Like, I know I like vanilla because I've tried rocky road and I don't like crunchy things. Right. And. Or I've tried outgoing people and, you know, I'm more of an introvert, or I'm more of an introvert, and I don't like introvert, other introverted people. I need some. Whatever it is you need to date without this expectation that we're going to make this work. Because, people, our culture of therapy has been great and brought us really far. But what it is perpetuated, and I strongly stand against, is the idea that if the relationship's not working, then it means that we need to work on it harder. Sometimes you have two good people who don't enjoy life the same way or the same things. And so this idea of compromise comes up. But what if I feel alive when I go dancing and you feel alive when you read books and you hate dancing and I hate books and we don't have anything else. We don't have any relationship. We don't have any friendship. Right. And it's kind of a simplification. So you want to make sure that you go on dates with people and figure out what, what is my spectrum, what is my range of what works for me and what I can connect with so that I can be happy in the relationship. Because the hardest thing to get a client out of when I work one on one with my, with my dating clients is getting them out of a relationship with the wrong person, who is a great person.

[34:40] Karin: Yeah. Yeah.

[34:42] Kelly: And I, they struggle and struggle and they try to teach the other person how to love them. But if the other person isn't touchy feely and you need touchy feely, you are always going to be angry that they're not giving you touchy feelies and you're going to feel like there's some, it's going to trigger you in ways that the other person isn't intending. They're just not a touchy feely person.

[35:04] Karin: Yeah.

[35:05] Kelly: So that's, I don't know if I kind of went off on that a little bit. That's okay.

[35:09] Karin: But it's good stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So tell us why being polite is something that women really need to be careful with and be aware of.

[35:21] Kelly: Yeah. And so, like, everything. Like, I don't want you to not be polite. I want you to check in and say, am I being polite because it's right to do in this scenario, or am I being polite because I'm uncomfortable? And I'm hoping that polite will, will keep this person from continuing to be impolite to me. Because women tend to go into polite mode to communicate. I need you to respond with politeness. So I'm going to model politeness. The problem is men have not been trained by society the same way. So when a woman goes into polite mode, I actually had a guy think this when I was dating in college. He's like, well, I assume that you like what I'm doing because you're not saying anything. I'm like, I have my arms are crossed. I am in the other seat. You know, like all my body languages, I don't like this because I'm trying to politely give the cue. So make sure that you're not so afraid of hurting the guy's feelings or making him think that you're a jerk, that you're using politeness as a shield because it won't shield you. I had a cop say to me one time, there's a lot of dead women who are really polite before they were. Yikes.

[36:31] Karin: Yeah. And on the flip side, why should women be really aware and cautious when they're dating a man who has all these wonderful smooth moves and is really gentlemanly and.

[36:49] Kelly: Yeah, well, first of all, that's lovely. And if they're lovely and gentlemanly and it's working for you, lean into it. But know that everyone for the first one to three months is on their best behavior. So I always file it away as awesome. This is a really good presentation. How long does this version of them last? Everyone can be a version of themselves for a certain percentage of time. And I tell my clients we're looking for someone that can be their most authentic self, their best version of themselves, 95% of the time or more, it's going to take a real deep stressor to pull them out of it. Right. So the thing that can be really hazardous about that is it can be something that someone knows how to turn on the charm for but doesn't know how to sustain. And then you're constantly thinking, oh, did I do something wrong? I've had clients say so often, like, on the beginning, they weren't like this. So I thought maybe if I just, you know, kind of ignored it and let them calm down, they would go back to being that version and. But the thing is, it's not that they're going back to being that version. They're going back to being the version that they're most comfortable with. They weren't comfortable with that other version. It was a version that took more energy to support and their home base is what you're seeing now.

[38:11] Karin: Yeah. If there's one thing you'd really like people to come away with after listening to this conversation, what would it be?

[38:21] Kelly: You are so important and so precious, and we cannot do anything to unhurt you. So it doesn't matter if you make a mistake and you have to apologize to someone, I'm going to give you the mama bear if nobody ever gave it to you. I'd rather have a guy or a woman. Not in your life. Because you made a mistake putting up a boundary than you, not being the functional, beloved human being that you are, and dealing with trauma from not having set that boundary. You are more important than anybody else's feelings and the right person. If something happens and you have to explain, I'm so sorry. I thought this was happening. They're going to go, that kind of sucks. And that didn't work for me. I don't want to date again, but thank you for telling me, or that kind of sucks. That didn't work for me, but I understand where you're coming from. That's what a reason. That's someone who respects you and anyone else, even if they weren't intending to hurt you, they're not worth your time. Because anybody that doesn't realize how freaking dangerous online dating is for the lesser empowered, the lesser physically powerful person is not going to have empathy for you in those moments where that's going to show up in the relationship anyway.

[39:34] Karin: Also going to be really important for women to value themselves in this process.

[39:37] Kelly: Yes. You are more important than the other person feeling comfortable. You are more important than not making a scene. You are more important than nothing. Hurting the other person's feelings by saying, hey, I don't want you to walk me to my car, because it's a vulnerable being at the car is actually a very vulnerable spot. You are more important than any person's other desires or discomfort. And we want to undo that programming that tells you that, hey, and I get it, because as a woman, this fine line between how do I set my boundary and not trigger this person to, like, behave crazy, you know, in this situation, like, you know, it's, you know, because we can. We can behave in a way that. That the other person chooses to retaliate in an aggressive way. So I get that there. There's a line, and there's Uber, there's the bartender, there's everyone in the place. You are worth more than any amount of discomfort that the other, like, saving the other person any amount of discomfort.

[40:43] Karin: I think that that's a really important concept for women to sit with, that we so often do prioritize the other person's comfort because when they're comfortable and uncomfortable, then we get uncomfortable, and then we do everything to try to smooth.

[41:00] Kelly: Things over because that's our role in society. Like, my first thing I do with my clients is like, okay, it is not your job to be so perfectly amiable that every man that wants to go on a date with you wants to be in a relationship with you, because that's what dating was taught. Like, if every man doesn't want to be with you, you somehow fail. You know, this culture of. And the problem is there are women that are naturally like that, who are lovely women, and we shouldn't denigrate them and their personalities, but not everyone has that personality. It is not our job to put everyone at ease. It's our job to be our best version of ourselves. And sometimes that means we are someone that puts people at ease in a heartbeat. And sometimes we make people go, oh, wow, wow, that's uncomfortable. And that's okay. All of that is okay.

[41:51] Karin: What role does love play in the work that you do?

[41:54] Kelly: I freaking love my clients, and I see the people that have the hardest time setting boundaries are the ones that weren't unconditionally loved and were shamed for having needs or trying to express themselves and getting them to a place where they can feel love for themselves enough to be able to set boundaries and let other people's disappointment in the fact that they can't be manipulated wash over them is very gratifying when I can get them to it, but heartbreaking. To see them struggle with self love is the biggest reason that people don't know how to do this. And they've never had it modeled. They don't know what it looks like to be treated well, so they don't know how to treat themselves well.

[42:41] Karin: Yeah, and I would love to have a whole conversation about that and how to help people with self love because I agree so much else comes from that place.

[42:50] Kelly: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just, I teach my clients curiosity is the cure, and I try to teach them to get in the emotional and mental state of just being curious. Like, oh, hey. Like, with that guy that yelled at me, I'm like, oh, why are you getting so upset? I said, like, why are you getting so upset? I said, I go out with you next week. That's not good enough. Like, oh, it's not good enough for you? He showed his like, I just got curious. I didn't take it personally. I'm like, wow, if you're going to get escalated about these questions, you're showing me who you are, which is the whole point of having a conversation. It's not to sell yourself as a potential dating partner. The whole point of the conversation is to get to know if someone is safe and desirable to spend time across the table talking to, period.

[43:40] Karin: How can people learn more about you and working with you?

[43:43] Kelly: Oh, you're so sweet. Swipesafely.com is I'm going on a big trip, so you can get on the waitlist by going to swipesafely.com for getting the safety stuff. I haven't been taking one on one clients because I've been trying to launch this inside that app, there will be a free component and then you can sign up for more information to get safer through, swipe safely, and then there'll be more information in there to work me through that. But I really want people really want people to get safe. Like, I realize that working with me isn't something that everyone can do, but everyone can stay safe and I can make that really affordable. So there's no reason for anybody not to be safe. And my guiding principle is the harder it is to access you, the less desirable you are to people that want to take advantage of you. And the more desirable you are to people that know that they don't want to be taken advantage of. And they know that someone that has really good, clear boundaries and knows how to set standards is not going to try and take advantage of them. Period. That's how it works.

[44:44] Karin: Wonderful. Great information. Kelly, thank you so much for being here and talking with me.

[44:51] Kelly: Absolutely. You've been so delightful. I'm excited to kind of get to know you a little bit better and dig into your stuff. It sounds like you do some great work and people need this. So thank you for doing this. What a lovely creation you have here.

Outro

[45:05] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on love is us. If you like the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today, because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be loved is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.