Bros (Queer Mainstream)

Queer Movie Podcast

In which Jazza is the only one who could watch Billy Eichner's Bros and recounts the best seggs scenes in cinema, period.

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

JAZZA: Before we kick off just a quick thank you to our top patrons Jennifer and Toby who are supporting us on the Rainbow Parent Tier. You're awesome. We love you. Okay, let's talk about some films.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best—

ROWAN: –And worst–

JAZZA: –In LGBTQ+ cinema one glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I'm still Jazza John.

ROWAN: Each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episode genre is—

JAZZA&ROWAN: Queer mainstream.

ROWAN: Yeah, look of us were like, how do we convey mainstream in our audio acting?

JAZZA: I went like serious business. Please give this voice-over work. We are going to be discussing the first gay film ever made. That's mainstream rom-com by a major studio. Yes. It's Billy Eichner's Bros.

ROWAN: But before we turn to steroids to get over our ex, Jazza, what's the gayest thing you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA: So you suggested this for me.

ROWAN: You're welcome.

JAZZA: And I thank you very much. Because I've had such a straight month, I got a text from bloods.co.uk saying your blood type which O+ by the way, please take note just in case I need blood donations, is running low. The UK is having a blood shortage at the moment for O+ and O– blood and they were like, you've given blood before please come in. Now listen up. The only time I've ever given blood was during COVID when I was not having any sex.

JAZZA: And it was actually–

ROWAN: Humble brag there from Jazza.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: The only time in my life.

JAZZA: So in the UK, men who have sex with men, are still unable to donate if they are sexually active and I'm not in a monogamous relationship. I as a little humblebrag just tweeted out, active sex life here hello everybody.

ROWAN: Oh, hello.

JAZZA: Um, still being discriminated against, despite the fact that I am on PrEP, get tested regularly, and probably less riddled with STIs than most straight men floating around giving blood. So I did a little political activeness.

ROWAN: I also, as I pointed out to Jazza, love that it is still in the theme of Jazza's updates always being about his romance or sex life.

JAZZA: That it's the only qualifier that I have for my gay card.

ROWAN: My one is going to be essentially the– in the tone of what I normally am, which is, is that actually gay Rowan, or if you just decided something's gay, so I did a, I went to a horror movie marathon night sleepover at my friend's house. And we watched, you know what, one of the movies that we watched was the new Hellraiser, which does have Jamie Clayton as Pinhead in it, who I actually saw in person on an elevator at a convention.

JAZZA: Not as Pinhead.

ROWAN: Not as Pinhead. No.

JAZZA: Okay.

ROWAN: And she is so beautiful like it, like. I was just kind of slightly overwhelmed. But I also was with two of my friends and I thought that they'd spotted her and I thought we'd get off the elevator and be excited about it. Except they had not clocked her whatsoever. So I had a very private moment with Jamie Clayton about

JAZZA: One-way moment.

ROWAN: One-way moment with Jamie Clayton.

JAZZA: Lovely. And how was that? I love it, but you did it. So it's gay. It's fun.

ROWAN: That's how it works. Yeah, exactly.

JAZZA: Good job. Well, that's nice to know that I have a broader umbrella of things that I can use for the segment in the future.

ROWAN: Well, I mean, Jamie Clayton's like a trans icon. So I feel like his.

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: And also I'm a gay guy, so it fits. It works. This is our podcast Jazza, we make the rules.

JAZZA: Yeah, it's our podcast, you make the rules.

ROWAN: Very true.

[theme]

JAZZA: We are going to be doing things a little differently in this episode because only I have seen the movie. Bros haven't come out in the UK. yet.

ROWAN: It is not.

JAZZA: And we are residents of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. But I happened to be serendipitously in the US last week and left a conference late at night and went to a 10 pm screening of both horrific jetlags. Managed to stay awake through the whole thing. So the plot section of this is all down to me. It was a week ago. I don't know how much I'm going to remember. But we'll see what we can do. So I'm going to be splitting it into three acts. Place your bets now as to where you think the party and its aftermath will fall.

ROWAN: But did you think, dear listener, that I was prepared to come on to this podcast and do an episode without having done any prep? No, despite not having seen the movie, I have, in fact, read all of the commentaries. Do I regret it? Maybe. So much discourse about this movie. And somehow Jazza hasn't come across all of this. So before we do the plot, I'm going to be telling them basically why the straights let us down/some of the gays as well in the marketing of this movie, the discourse around this movie. And more everyone has been saying about it. And then I guess I'll be finding out whether any of it is true, with any of this discussion around this movie having any validity.

JAZZA: The only thing I have seen, is how pissed off Billy Eichner, who is the star and writer of this movie. Is pissed off and blamed the straights for not going to support queer cinema.

ROWAN: Indeed.

JAZZA: Despite the fact that Fire Island seems to do fine. Uh, heads up listener, we will be spoiling all of this movie. If you are the type of person who likes to go in blind to films, then pause now go watch it, support queer cinema, and come back later. Okay, thank you so much for coming back. It's lovely to have you. Thanks for coming.

ROWAN: Without further ado, Let's wrestle in the park and make out. It's very funny that I'm doing the lead-in when I haven't seen the movies. I don't know that reference yet. And review Bros.

[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, so the genre today is mainstream cinema. And this is kind of interesting, right? Because what is mainstream cinema, this movie heavily marketed itself as being mainstream, and that being one of its selling points, specifically, the idea—

JAZZA: The first gay movie.

ROWAN: The first gay movie ever, but specifically, the idea of it being the first romcom by a "major studio" in inverted commas. I think this is very interesting, for several reasons. One, I don't think that that is true. Because I think there are definitely a lot of movies that you can consider to be romcoms that are gay, that like have major studio backing in some way, I guess it's the one that was commissioned by a major studio rather than distributed by it, maybe. But either way, the idea that one mainstream studio like a big studio is a thing that we should be aspiring towards, is one thing that's kind of implied by the fact that it's part of the marketing. And two, it implies that these major studios are irrelevant still, which I think is in itself, kind of contentious, because I think nowadays, people are more likely to see a movie if it is made by a streamer, than if they are made by a major studio. So if you're looking to say, this is how the financial backing of a big company and a lot of people will have access to it. It's kind of more impressive to potentially have it on Prime or Netflix or Apple+, sure, sure.

JAZZA: Yeah. And in terms of being able to have the—like that accessibility thing, what's going to be seen by more people. I remember in the run-up to this, it was hanging on the fact that it was in cinemas, everybody go to the cinema to see it. And I felt like that was a weird thing in a, because I only ever really do that for like the really big, big, big blockbusters. But that is a different experience. Going to the cinema to see it there, rather than in your living room.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: Yeah. It's a—what do we count as a major studio?

ROWAN: I think technically, I looked this up for a video about this, or I think when I was initially when this came out, and I was like, I feel like I need to fact-check the marketing of this movie because it doesn't seem accurate. And I have a feeling since I did that. Probably studios have like been bought by the studios. And maybe there's only one left at this point.

JAZZA: me.

ROWAN: And so yeah, basically, this kind of happened. And Billy Eichner tweeted about the idea of like, hey, this movie didn't do well, because straight people didn't go and see it. And then he kind of had to like backtrack and defend the marketing of his movie. I think the quote was, the marketing is not the movie. And the tweets are not the movie. But he weirdly like it's a strange relationship where he—the people publicly talking about this movie, who are involved in this movie seem to want to credit Billy Eichner with like, all of it. They want to credit him with every success. But say that he has absolutely zero to do with anything negative to do with the movie, which seems very strange, like the idea of all the marketing has nothing to do with Billy, it's all to do with the studio. But then they're also saying that he is like the big orchestrator of everything. And this movie is all queer-made. And like all this stuff, which I thought was very interesting as like a kind of these two things don't quite gel together to create a full picture to me.

JAZZA: He's, he wouldn't, though, like he was the writer. I think he has producer credit as well if I remember correctly, but it would be really weird if he had something to do with the marketing and the way that they were trying to frame the film to the general public.

ROWAN: Well, the very first. When it was first being talked about, it was really doing it and he was the one who was saying this is the first like he was the one who used that as, as a cell. Right? It wasn't that this was being used by the studios and he like even retweeted a post about it. Like he was the one who first tweeted about it.

JAZZA: Okay, so it's Billy's fault.

ROWAN: Yeah, kind of, and also then he continued to kind of dig this hole by doing these tweets about blaming the failure on a straight audience. I think when you look at the marketing for this movie, like that poster with like the two guys with the hands on each other's butts, with this very like, classic rom-com, font, and logo and stuff. I kind of—

JAZZA: Yeah with the O with the like Cupid's arrow.

ROWAN: Yeah. And like, it's like the producer of Train Wreck and Bridesmaids and the director of Forgetting Sarah Marshall is what's on the poster? Then, it feels like who is this poster for? Like, who did they think this poster was going to work on? Because it doesn't feel like what. In hindsight they have been trying to sell to the queer community, to try and persuade them that it isn't just a movie that they made for straight people to see in cinemas.

JAZZA: They—in the past, we've criticized movies for not being or we've talked about some movies not being like explicitly gay in their marketing. And to be fair, this is explicitly gay like there's a not-safe-for-work trailer that is pretty safe for work to be completely honest.

ROWAN: Yep.

JAZZA: There's— like it's explicitly two guys with their hands in each other's back pockets on the bumbum.

ROWAN: Although I will say that there is a history in Hollywood of movies in which two men have to fake being gay together for various reasons, which have poses that are very similar, and the movie is called Bros. So there is, there is it, there is an argument that a street audience or people who hadn't seen that this is what the movie was about, might not have necessarily, especially where all of the comps are straight movies, might not have necessarily picked up on that as obviously as we might have. But I do see your point.

JAZZA: Yeah, it feels like all of those quotations of like, mentioning bridesmaids, and all the other kind of like big mainstream. Like I think those kinds of movies are like straight culture, trying to be like, hey, you like this too? I think it was trying to, we called this episode ma-mainstream. It is trying to put Bros in the same kind of like category, as those big blockbusters with like the mainstream comedian stars from the US. I don't have a huge problem with that. But I think that it was overly ambitious to try and do that.

ROWAN: I think that they're like the history-making aspect of the narrative as being the way to sell it, because I don't think the first blah, blah, blah, was like, was going to sell it to straight people, right? That felt like a thing that they were doing with queer people, except like we know better. So it just felt very—

JAZZA: We know better when Twitter and Tiktok exist. So everybody said this.

ROWAN: Yes. there's a difference between like, it's going mainstream, and we're excited about that, as opposed to it's going mainstream, and we're kind of be weirdly been guilted into going to see this movie, especially when as you mentioned earlier, so recently added Fire Island, which was even at first glance, way more diverse, seemed to have more heart to it. It was very good. And were very well received and came out first. So it feels like, it felt a bit weird. The thing that I want to talk about that I don't think you will have seen, that I think is now post the initial marketing, potentially getting people less, even less likely to see it or want to see it if they've seen it. Is the threads in the commentary by Guy Branum, who—

JAZZA: I haven't seen this?

ROWAN: So this is, this person Jazza who was in the movie.

JAZZA: Oh, shoot. Yeah, yeah. It's Gay Fat Friend.

ROWAN: Yes. So kind of down in his Twitter profile. co-starring, co-producer of the major motion picture Bros, is, is the profile. So he essentially has been tweeting a lot about this and his angle on it, which has gotten like 500, quote tweets at this point. So there's a lot of commentary going on, as well as a lot of people kind of discussing it, is a sort of bitterness, I guess. So the first tweet in this thread reads, in talking about how cruelly Billy Eichner, white, cis, rich, hot or not, hot enough to be a movie star, depending on who's tweeting, demanded the queer community support his movie. I think that is rarely mentioned by the rest of the cast. And then he basically talks about how this movie is great because it's so diverse. And Billy has like magnanimously given opportunities to all of these diverse actors, which a lot of people, like I haven't seen it but a lot of people have pointed out that like, cool but the two main people are two, like Cis-Y gay.

JAZZA: The two leads are Cis-Y and conventionally attractive. Billy, you are conventionally attractive gay.

ROWAN: And including a bunch of like people for a hot, like a hot minute each is not necessarily going to launch their careers.

JAZZA: TS Madison has a full six lines.

ROWAN: Love that.

JAZZA: I don't know what you're talking about, but—

ROWAN: And so he kind of has this thread of Billy basically is making all these people's careers, he's incredible, he's great. And then any criticism of the way the movie has been talked about or anything like that is like Billy actually has nothing to do with it. It's his kind of became peak that difficulty I was talking about, of like trying to have both things at once. And so yeah, a lot of people have had many thoughts about this, this thread has kind of gone a bit viral among these people talking about this movie. And I think that there is this element of not just the initial marketing, which I think if they, that just happened, and then the people involved in the movie, are just shut up about it, then maybe this would have been something that was just like, it's fine. It's a, It's cute, maybe we'll see it when it's streaming.

JAZZA: Tale as old as time.

ROWAN: But I think that this—this like sarcastic, bitter, kind of a bit cringe response from some of the people involved, has been what has left a bit of a sour taste in some people's mouths, who might otherwise have like giving it a go at some point and like giving it their money. That is what I know about the movie because I'm not gonna lie. The trailer didn't really tell me much. Like from the trailer, I assume that there's this guy who has low self-esteem, and he starts a romance with a guy who he thinks is too hot for him. And he works at some terrible LGBT organization where everyone's always infighting, and everyone has like the worst stereotype of, their individual identity. And that's the plot of the movie. That's what I get from the trailer. And like that alone was not of any interest to me.

JAZZA: That is, that is the impression that I had going into it as well, from all of the trailers and stuff.

ROWAN: From the trailer.

JAZZA: I would say, I, It's that's not right.

ROWAN: Oooh.

JAZZA: That isn't correct. Yeah.

ROWAN: Interesting. So I'm really excited to hear about what the truth is about this movie, the actual plot, and whether I guess at the end, maybe we could have figured out how they could have marketed this movie in a way that wasn't trash, to the point where me potentially part of the target audience has really zero intention of seeing, at least definitely not paying to sit in the cinema.

JAZZA: Good. Let's do that.

ROWAN: Okay.

[theme]

JAZZA: So there are parts of your assumptions of the movie that are broadly correct. Billy Eichner plays Bobby Lieber, I mean, it's basically Billy Eichner, Billy has to play himself.

ROWAN: Tough one.

JAZZA: And is a host of a New York podcast radio show, which I think in the opening scene, is on Facebook, he's on Facebook Live.

ROWAN: Oh, wow.

JAZZA: Widget and you're seeing like all of the emotes come up and all that kind of stuff. The show is called the 11th Cricut Stonewall, where he says it was trans women who threw the first brick at Stonewall. And a gay man definitely wasn't the second or third, but probably through the 11th Cricut Stonewall. So this kind of starts off. The biggest problem I have with the movie is where it goes from being actually a really good rom-com, full stop, and a really good gay rom-com at that, to being hyper-conscious of the need for it to be inclusive, and the need to revert to Asterix and say, oh, by the way, X, Y, Zed. This is what the situation is really like. Remember that this isn't like LGBTQ + community intersectional and bla bla bla bla bla. And sometimes there are points in the movie where it's almost like a piece to camera, where Billy or another character will do a preachy line for a few minutes. And then you're back in the movie. And it's like funny and banter and all of that.

ROWAN: Would you prefer it if it was just the Billy and boy cut, where they just cut everything that isn't the rom-com? And that is just your short film.

JAZZA: I think that is a better movie.

ROWAN: Interesting.

JAZZA: But I understand the desire for it to be kind of like inclusive and intersectional. But I just don't think it worked. Because I don't think that it was necessarily baked into the story that they wanted to tell and therefore had to retcon all of the politically aware stuff into the story at a later date. So Act One, I have called It's Debra Messing You Gays.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: Which is a reference to one of the

ROWAN: I got, I, I've. I did figure that out.

JAZZA: Yeah, there are people listening who won't know that, Rowan.

ROWAN: No, no, no, I didn't mean that. I'd figured out what was. I just mean that I figured out that that probably was a reference to something in Act One.

JAZZA: Oh, no, no, no. So It's Debra Messing You Gays, is a reference to a video when Billy Eichner did Billy on the Street, which was a web series. So there's like, there are so many videos of him running around Manhattan with lesbians going, let's go lesbians, let's go.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: So that's where that meme is from. And then there's also he has one video where he runs around with Debra Messing trying to find gay people and introduce Debra Messing from Will and Grace to gay people. Debra Messing also makes an appearance in this movie a sweet cameo as herself, which is a callback to the Billy Eichner kind of origin story from like 10 years ago, I think that is when that video first came out. And so that's why I've called the act as such. So Billy Bobby, the character, has a lovely kind of life. I think he's in his late 30s or early 40s, and has a lovely time being independent. Prides himself in being independent, and happy with her cups after he nuts in a man. He likes to go on a nice walk and wander around in order to clear his head and really have a nice think about the world.

ROWAN: Enjoys long walks on the beach after a nap.

JAZZA: Yes, exactly the same to be fair.

ROWAN: Dating profile magic.

JAZZA: Oh, I might get on Tinder after this, you speak that out. Good, good. Good shout.

ROWAN: You're welcome.

JAZZA: So Bobby gets an award, it—I'll be honest, it looks like the British LGBT awards like a load of moneyed queers in a dining room, patting each other on the back.

ROWAN: Classic.

JAZZA: He—he gets an award for best Cis gay male.

ROWAN: Amazing.

JAZZA: Yeah. And then he, when he gets this award, he announces that he's actually going to be the curator or he's like the leader or something at the National LGBTQ + History Museum that's going to be in Manhattan, which is where we have all of those scenes at like, at his job with all of these other people who are on the board of the History Museum, the Queer Britain Museum, I wept at the suggestion that this is the first movie but it's okay. This is a fictional, a fictional world. He goes out celebrates and ends up catching eyes with Luke MacFarlane.

ROWAN: Who?

JAZZA: We have—

ROWAN: A favorite of the podcast.

JAZZA: A favorite of the podcast.

ROWAN: We love him.

JAZZA: We love him. For anybody who hasn't heard our Christmas special episode. Luke MacFarlane has a long history of starving in straight roles in Hallmark movies and then got to stone a gay Hallmark movie.

ROWAN: I forgot to say this, but that Twitter thread that I was quoting earlier from the guy. I think the thing that made me like, maybe slightly biased against this man's opinions, was that he talks in this thread about how Billy Eichner basically is like making those people's careers. He mentions Luke, but it's like basically that Billy rescued him from this awful genre of like rom-com. I'm like bitch, you're in a rom—like this is a rom-com you're doing right now, and Lukes great at what he does. So go away. But yeah, he was trapped in straight romcoms for a while there.

JAZZA: Yeah, and Luke is the perfect casting for this I think, so he's this muscley toned dolphin-like smooth body.

ROWAN: Himbo or smart heart?

JAZZA: A little from Column a, a little from Column b.

ROWAN: Excellent.

JAZZA: So they begin flirting Bobby and Luke Macfarlane's character, Aaron, end up flirting a little bit. They start saying about how dumb gay men are and gay men love self-deprecating and complaining about other gay men. So really beautiful moment for the two of them. And then Luke Macfarlane's character disappears. So this ends up being kind of like a running thing of they'll be talking. Maybe they'll

ROWAN: ghost.

JAZZA: It might be. Actually, this is the sixth sense twist. You didn't see it coming.

ROWAN: What a twist! I did not see that coming. You're right. The trailer didn't give it away.

JAZZA: No, exactly. And so we have this running joke, I guess, of Luke's character, that kind of going off and having a threesome. And Bobby not really knowing whether Aaron is interested in him or not. The two of them end up texting and texting. There's like high banter. But Aaron is giving a vibe of like, oh, you're, you're very straight. Like he's using the office gifts, in their text conversations, and all of that kind of stuff. And then eventually, they end up going out to the movies and having like a proper date where they don't hook up. I know.

ROWAN: Shock horror.

JAZZA: Shock horror. However, we then have, actually no, what is the, however, there is no however here, the joy, and the best bit of this movie are all of the sex scenes. Actually, the best cut of this movie is all of the sex scenes spliced together. It'll be 15 minutes and I'll give you a big

ROWAN: That's a long, long amount of time.

JAZZA: They're so good. So at the end of the day, Aaron ends up being like, hey, do you want to come to this threesome with me with this couple?

ROWAN: That's love.

JAZZA: And Bobby is like, now like I don't, I don't really want to and then eventually gets convinced to go and they have, we have this cutaway of them like kissing. Like we don't know whether they've gone to the three-way or to, to the four-way or not. We cut to just Aaron and Bobby kissing and then it pans out. And then this couple giving just Aaron head. So Aaron is sitting, all of them butt naked. Aaron is sitting there with two guys on his crotch and Bobby is there kind of like on the side like leaning over, is kissing Aaron.

ROWAN: Bobby.

JAZZA: And he just goes, you know what I think I'm gonna go, and he's like are you sure, you sure? Then Bobby just like splits and bounces? More of these sex scenes to come, It's very naked. Debra Messing now. Debra Messing has done something controversial and I cannot remember what the thing is that's controversial, but she needs to make something up like she's done something homophobic. She's tweeted something homophobic. And so, in order to rectify this, she has decided to have a meeting about donating to the LGBT Museum where Bobby works. Bobby then starts complaining to Debra Messing about his love troubles and confusing relationship with Aaron, and Debra Messing loses it, it's like, why do gay men always think that they can divulge all of their secrets to me? All they want to do is a vent to me. I am more than just graceful in Will and Grace. And that's pretty much all of Debra Messing's character and

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: It is, it is lovely. It's nice to get it out of the way. So when they were out on the date, they end up bumping into one of Aaron's old schoolmates. And the schoolmate, then later comes out as gay. So this old flame that Aaron had. He fancied him in Highschool.

ROWAN: Ah. Okay. Classic. Classic. Yep.

JAZZA: So now, yeah, yeah. We have someone for Bobby to compete against. And we find out that he's gay. As a little seed for later on. We then have the second fantastic sexy and actually, you know what, I'm renaming this, this is just like Sex, Single all this acts.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: There is a scene that has been, that's on YouTube. You can watch it.

ROWAN: I love that you've looked it up, like you went to see it and was like, I need to double check if I can have easy access to this thing.

JAZZA: I just need to double-check this again. Yeah, so they're out on a date. Aaron and Bobby are on a date, having a picnic in Central Park.

ROWAN: Adorable.

JAZZA: I assume anyway because I think Central Park is the only park in the whole of New York.

ROWAN: Check out.

JAZZA: Yeah, they're having a conversation. And Aaron just keeps on looking at all of these muscled guys playing. I guess it's not rugby, it will be American football, won't it? And Bobby goes, you like those guys? You'd like, like hot, straight, muscley guys, and then Aaron's like, no, no, no, it's not just that blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they start wrestling in the park.

ROWAN: We've discussed this trope already Jazza, layaway.

JAZZA: We—we get there. We're, we're fighting. We're wrestling. We're rolling around and then the sexual tension starts. The best bit of the scene is that the rugby players come over and think that two guys are fighting at the park and go over to break it up.

ROWAN: Oh my god. Amazing.

JAZZA: And then they kiss and then the rugby players are like, oh, sorry, bro, sorry bro, and then bounce.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: We cut to Bobby's apartment and the sex scene. Were they doing the most over the top, oh yeah, you like that, you like, oh fucking touch my muscles, hit my chest.

ROWAN: Oh my god.

JAZZA: It's the funniest fucking thing. I'm literally there cackling in the cinema watching this.

ROWAN: We've talked before on the podcast about this weird trope, where like gay guys will physically fight each other in order for them to be able to care. So I like the fact that this came after they'd already like been making out previously. It wasn't like, oh, look how violence is inherently tied to our being gay. It was like kind of just in there in the middle of a fun little roleplay situation.

JAZZA: It was absolutely wonderful. After the second sex scene, there's another one their way. Because Bobby fucked it up with Debra Messing, you gays. He has to go up to province towns to court a millionaire to be a new financier for the, for that Museum. They ended up going up in meeting our Bowen Yang, from Fire Island.

ROWAN: Yes indeed from Far Island fame.

JAZZA: Where eventually Aaron ends up helping to get a $5 million donation.

ROWAN: We knew Aaron was, we were keeping Aaron around for a reason.

JAZZA: Yeah, exactly. 100% So there are a couple of things that happen in this province town section. Once we find out that Aaron is taking steroids. Sorry not steroids, so Bobby open's the door, and has a needle in his legs. And Bobby's like I didn't know that you take steroids, and Aaron goes it's not steroids. It's just testosterone. And sweetie that is, that is what steroids are. Steroids are our testosterone.

ROWAN: I was, I was wondering for a second there, whether we were going to have a surprise trans love interest, but it sounds like he's just taking steroids.

JAZZA: No, no, no. Just, just a himbo gay man.

ROWAN: Okay, classic. Yep.

JAZZA: And so this happens and Aaron goes, well, you like the fact that it makes my body hot and sexy for you. Bobby just kind of goes okay. And then it's not really mentioned ever again.

ROWAN: Sure.

JAZZA: They also have there's this moment where they're on the beach, and they're talking in Provincetown. And this is another one of like the two candlelit moments, where Bobby talks about the fact that he was always taught that he was too gay when he was in acting class, he was told he'd never be that, be able to be an actor, because he had, was too effeminate. Whenever he was interested in gay history or writing about gay history, he was always told that it was too much. Why are you always talking about this all of the time and Aaron goes, This is crazy. I think that you're one of the most confident people I've ever known. And Bobby's, like, it's all just an act. And then they make out again and probably have sex again. But that's off-camera.

ROWAN: So you're like unimportant. Moving on.

JAZZA: Unimportant.

[theme]

JAZZA: I now move into my Act Two, which I'll be honest, it is relatively short.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: But does contain the best of all three sexes.

ROWAN: Hmm. Excellent.

JAZZA: I am calling this The Party and its Aftermath.

ROWAN: Of course, we had, we had to have one. We had to have one of these. For anyone who hasn't listened to this podcast before, you—because you had to have not listened to this podcast literally ever. Because in every single episode in which we talk about a movie, we managed to somehow have gay movies just seemed to have a party and also the party's aftermath in there, sometimes multiple parties, so we knew it was coming. I honestly challenge any of you to find one that we can't party in its aftermath because it's truely.

JAZZA: There are a couple of times that we've had to like crowbar it in a little bit.

ROWAN: No, no, no.

JAZZA: There was always a party in

ROWAN: It's been seamless. It's been completely seamless the entire time. Okay, so tell me about this party.

JAZZA: They've been dating on again, off again for a while, and we end up at a holiday party, where it's like all very festive, crackers, Christmas trees, gifts, all of that kind of stuff. So Josh, who is the guy that Aaron fancies from school.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: Who is now newly out is also at this party that Bobby and Aaron are at. And Aaron starts talking to him, and then they have the monogamy question.

ROWAN: Oh, okay.

JAZZA: And I'll be honest, Bobby does not need a lot of convincing. And so they decide to end up having a three-way.

ROWAN: With Josh.

JAZZA: Yeah, so this sounds like—

ROWAN: That seems so fine.

JAZZA: Since it's gonna be hot, right? Well, to be honest, it is fine, because it ends up not being anything about Josh, because a fort, they put their hands, they all agree to like go back to Bobby's flat and have a three-way. And then, this fourth guy just kind of like it turns up in the frame and go, and then puts his hand on one of the shoulders. And then he's just that, and the best of the sexy.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: So they've accidentally turned this three-way into a four-way. And this fourth guy is just always there like—

ROWAN: Hi. Hello.

JAZZA: It's like always trying to insert himself into like this passionate thing.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: I literally really pissed myself laughing at this scene. It's one of the best scenes I have ever seen in a cinema.

ROWAN: Yeah. I feel like I need a supercut of this movie. But it's just all of the funny sex scenes.

JAZZA: It is all the sex scenes. Honestly, that was where this movie absolutely shone. And I'm annoyed that, that apparently hasn't been part of any of the discourse at all.

ROWAN: Hmm. Unfortunately not.

JAZZA: After they've had a four-way, Aaron's family comes to visit. They've never been to New York before. And Bobby is told to tone it down by um, so honestly.

ROWAN: Wow, what an original story line.

JAZZA: Maybe just like you had an 11, maybe take it down to a 6, that would be great. And it all culminates to when they're in a restaurant, where there are musical theater actors performing around them.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: And Bobby has an argument or like an intense conversation with Aaron's mom around the fact that Aaron's mom is a teacher and says that second grade, which is about seven or eight years old. So second grade is too early to start teaching kids about LGBT history.

ROWAN: Oh, Lord.

JAZZA: And she goes, it's a bit early, though, isn't it? And then they have a big argument. And then Aaron and Bobby break up.

ROWAN: Classic rom-com break-up in the second act. We knew it was coming.

JAZZA: Also. Sorry. We're not, we're not quite at the depth of Act Two yet for them to climb out of. There's a huge fight at the museum, which is where a lot of the clips from the scene of all of the other people who are on the board end up fighting. I only remember TS Madison, because she eats up every single scene that she's in.

ROWAN: Yeah, I was gonna say, it seems pretty pointed the fact that through this entire summary of all of the important plot points, which so far has lasted almost half an hour. You have not mentioned any of these supposedly extremely important secondary diverse characters, one time.

JAZZA: They have. They're not important. They're, They're not important. They have some great one-liners, but that is about it. They then end up having a big fight because Bobby wants to put on an exhibition about Abraham Lincoln being gay. And they're like, you can't he was BI, and you can't, the Republicans will hate it. And then they tear a pride flag in half. And that's where my Act Two ends.

ROWAN: The symbolism.

[theme]

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[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, wow. So dark night of the soul. Here we go. How are we going to claw it back from the brink Bobby/Billy.

JAZZA: So we're now in Act Three. Bros and Bros.

ROWAN: Okay, we're excited to figure out what that means.

JAZZA: Yeah. yeah. Wait for. So, Bobby is in the depths of depression after he breaks up with Josh. No, no, breaks up with Bob—with Aaron, the other white guy. Bobby decides to go on steroids as well.

ROWAN: Oh, sure. Why not?

JAZZA: So Bobby takes one steroid shot.

ROWAN: He takes one steroid.

JAZZA: He takes. I have one of your finest steroids please sir. And then goes to a gym, puts his hat on backward, and his cap on backward.

ROWAN: Oh Lord.

JAZZA: And lowers his voice. Hey, bro, spots for this guy in the gym, hooked up with him, and then when they get out of the, there's no actual sex scene, but there's a post-coital scene. Bobby goes back to his normal voice. And this guy in the gym goes What the fuck? Who are you? And then Bobby just leaves. So this I think really is the of the of the thing.

ROWAN: Okay, I Okay, here's the thing. I know that this would not, this would, and this humor would have been too much for this movie. But fully the obvious thing to have said then, like at this moment in which you just taken a single, a single steroid, judging by conversations that have previously been done and someone said, what the fuck. The heat in that voice would say, I'm sorry, this is just my voice one day on T. Wouldn't, extremely fucking funny, but I feel like this movie wasn't ready to go, go to these places of genuine queer humor.

JAZZA: Would have been amazing, sorry my voice is still breaking.

ROWAN: Oh my god. Okay, excellent. Right. This sounds incredible.

JAZZA: Yeah, don't worry. And we're going to like run to the end of this movie now. So Bobby ends up going back to work and reconciles with everybody else, including TS Madison. Wonderful, excellent. They decide what to put on. They say, uh everybody needs to be represented here. Really excellent, good job. Aaron, while they've been separated, has decided to quit his job and fulfill his dream of making miniature chocolates.

ROWAN: Cool. I'm assuming that that was referenced at some point previously in the movie or something.

JAZZA: It was at some point, but I forgot that it is, it is not important.

ROWAN: Excellent.

JAZZA: Then Aaron like sends a video to Bobby showing him all of the queer thing chocolates that he's made. So he's got a silence equals death chocolate. He's got pink triangle chocolate.

ROWAN: It's like a. I've learned so much from you.

JAZZA: That is very much my vibe. It's very much my vibe.

ROWAN: Wow.

JAZZA: And then they have the opening of the museum, Debra Messing is, is there.

ROWAN: Wow, she dares show her face again.

JAZZA: Again. How dare she.

ROWAN: Debra.

JAZZA: She hasn't been uncanceled within this And Bobby decides to text Aaron and says, it'd be nice if you were, it would be nice if you came. Aaron then has a conversation with his actual biological bro.

ROWAN: Oh, Bros and Bro.

JAZZA: Bros and bros. Bros and bros.

ROWAN: Do we know he had a bro?

JAZZA: Yes.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: Yeah, that was also referenced, what but also, the bro had nothing interesting to do for the whole thing. He was just kind of there when the parents were visiting and didn't have a single line.

ROWAN: Standing yeah.

JAZZA: But the bro was there.

ROWAN: The bro was there.

JAZZA: And so Aaron's bro convinces him to go to the museum. And then Bobby does a musical number in a country music style, because that's what Aaron likes, also referenced earlier in the movie, then they kiss and then they say, oh, and Bobby gets down on one knee and says, Will you date me for three months and then reassess.

ROWAN: I like that.

JAZZA: And then they date for three months. And we get a cut to Aaron's mom bringing her second-grade class to the LGBTQ + Museum in Manhattan.

ROWAN: Cute. That's growth.

JAZZA: Great resolution. I know. They're too young. They're still dating. And then Bobby keeps on asking Aaron if he wants to have kids. And that's the end of the movie.

ROWAN: Setting up for a sequel that I'm pretty sure will not happen.

JAZZA: Not happen. Yes, exactly.

ROWAN: Wow, what was, okay question? What was when the bros and the bros were having a conversation? Like why was Aaron not gonna go back to Bobby? Like, what was the actual reasoning behind this?

JAZZA: Oh, I don't remember.

ROWAN: Compelling. Compelling answer.

JAZZA: Yeah. All in all, I really liked this movie.

ROWAN: Oh, excellent.

JAZZA: I would recommend watching it. I will say it feels in this day and age where really I only go to like, to the movie for like an art house.

ROWAN: Oh, right.

JAZZA: Like a film festival.

ROWAN: Oh right.

JAZZA: Shut up.

ROWAN: I was like, I was like, ready I was with you when you, I really go to the cinema. And I'm like, yeah, I too, and you go to the cinema for, but I was gonna say like, movies where you want them to be on the big screen. Because they are like spectacular, or they're. Like, I went to see the Woman King the other day, holy shit, that go and see that movie in a cinema because it's absolutely fantastic on a big screen, not an arthouse, the maybe I would go to festivals, I would go to see an arthouse movie in a cinema because it means that I like have had to pay so much money, that I would not be forced immediately to like turn it off from boredom. So I guess you know, you get the best of both worlds with this podcast. Do you know what I mean? You get two very different—

JAZZA: People.

ROWAN: two, two very different people on this podcast.

JAZZA: If so, if I can finish my

ROWAN: Yeah sure.

JAZZA: Either like an arthouse film, like a film festival or something where it's like a shared experience or for like the big blockbusters. So like all the Marvel movies, I'll go and watch Wakanda forever there, etcetera.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah, very excited to cry during that movie.

JAZZA: There is no need for there to, for this to be seen in the cinema. This I think. And I know that they were so excited about this being a big blockbuster release. This belongs on the streaming service, I think in this day and age. And actually, I think that is the case for all of the movies that were referenced, like Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Bridesmaids, and other things. I think if they were released now, they would also belong on streaming services. And I think that's just where we're at

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: With this kind of media production at the moment.

ROWAN: I agree. And part of me wonders whether there is this element of like Billy Eichner, through this long career that he's had, getting given this opportunity and feeling like in a, in a weirdly in the way that a lot of YouTubers, you see them wanting to get into like mainstream. Like there was that period when loads of YouTubers tried to have TV shows. And it's like, why is this your dream? Like why? Is it just so you can sa—

JAZZA: Well it's because that's what

ROWAN: I had a blockbuster movie because that's what previously has been the mark of success. And it kind of feels almost like I wonder if that was part of it for Billy Eichner where it's like, okay, I'd been given this opportunity by a company that will allow me to be a movie maker, right? Like, write a movie that's going to be on this in the cinema. And I get to like it because that's what used to be a success. And I feel like we're getting to that tipping point, where actually you can have success, you can have something that feels like genuinely important, impactful, celebrating enjoyed. That is a movie that's never in a cinema.

JAZZA: And to me, he's a very successful actor, he's had four Emmy nominations.

ROWAN: But in terms of sight, it sounds like this was the thing that he released the way this was the goal he was working towards like this was a thing where he got given some money to make a thing he wanted to make, you know, all of that stuff building towards this goal. And I think that's probably part of where this reaction from him I guess, and potentially other people were coming from is the fact that this was not the realization of the goal, he thought it would be.

JAZZA: Yeah, 100%. I think that you see that nowadays with a lot of content creators, so like our generation, or maybe more my generation, cause I'm—

ROWAN: You're not that much older than me Jazza.

JAZZA: everybody wanted to get a like radio show or a TV show off the back of their YouTube channel. Whereas now you see people who have gotten started on like, Tiktok, and their goal is to have a huge, successful YouTube channel. And those kinds of like ideas of what is successful are really baked into what we want to achieve at the beginning of our careers. And I think that maybe Billy Eichner is a bit of a, I don't want to say victim that feels a bit melodramatic. But he's, he's a victim of, of that being like the end goal of what he wanted to achieve. He's made a great movie, it is a very good movie. The preachy stuff doesn't fit very well. It feels like an afterthought. And I'm sorry, it is not that, there are plenty of like people from different backgrounds in it, but they literally have like a handful of lines.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And most of that representation is around that boardroom table of the museum.

ROWAN: Yeah, it's not gonna, it's not gonna start anyone's career is what I'm getting from this.

JAZZA: No, yeah. A 100% Exactly.

ROWAN: What's that? Okay. Can I just ask, in terms of talking about the baked-in story, like talking about the central story?

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Well, is there a reason, because it, because I just looked up a screenshot of Josh as well. He was also white, right?

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Was there a reason why all three of these named, named characters that I heard about during that summary, were all Cis gay white guys.

JAZZA: Yeah, all of them.

ROWAN: Was there a reason like did it to you? Would it fundamentally change the movie? Like wouldn't have complicated it?

JAZZA: No it wouldn't have. No, Josh wouldn't have like at all. I mean, the fact that I'm saying this, and like, it feels like I'm grasping at straws for this, the guy that Bobby hooks up with when he's, I was about to say when he's on T, when he's had his first steroid shot and does the voice thing. That guy is black.

ROWAN: Wow, that was a grasp.

JAZZA: That's it. That's it.

ROWAN: Interesting, because I do wonder, it's like, it feels like hearing that. Like, if you had turned around a like, uh, well, actually, this whole movie is about, like all these people, the trailer was kind of a fake out. And there was all of this, they got to stuff like that. I mean, different, but it sounds like it's that wasn't the case. And it was.

JAZZA: It is, it's a lovely gay story. And I think it wanted to, well, I think as an afterthought, it wanted to be something else. But it's Billy Eichner writing about about his experiences in older gay man in New York, and that's fine. And it's really, really good at that. Like at its core, the thing that the movie at its core is trying to do, it's really, really good in telling that story. But then it tried to be so many other things, at the same time that it felt half-assed.

ROWAN: Okay, I have a final question for you, which is based on this guy, Branum thread, which was a tweet that I wanted to like, listen to what you had said before, then reading you the tweet, because I was like, maybe it'll become apparent that this is true. From what you have said, it feels like this tweet that he has done isn't, doesn't feel necessarily accurate. So someone had replied to him and basically said, this just seems very like hot white Bros, and I have a feeling that like a lot of people who don't fit that demographic, will feel like they don't necessarily feel invested in a story about these people, potentially also, because those are the kind of people who have like not necessarily treated them very well, with even within the community. And the guy replied with a tweet saying, this movie is about the dehumanization, white bros have committed against Fat Femme and POC gay people and the obligation to move past it. This could have been a movie that pretended, there's no toxicity in the queer community. Instead, it tries to examine it. Have you even seen the movie? Does that feel accurate to you?

JAZZA: It's a stretch. I will say, I've just Bowen Yang is also in the, is also has like a significant role in it as like the benefactor. As another person of color, who I forgot about. Kind of. I think it means that you have to view Bill Eichner character, Bobby as like the subjects that is meant to be like expanding Aaron's horizons, and to a certain extent he is, because he's like, he talks too much. He's,He's frail, there's a scene where Bobby talks about his concave chest and things like that. But I don't, I wouldn't say it's like a central theme of the movie. To be honest, it more seems to be about Bobby being able to be accepted for the loud, brash, politically active person that he is, and finding his space in the world while still being true to that. I don't think it's really got the wider commentary side of things down.

ROWAN: That's very fun. Okay, in which case, I think. I mean, I feel like I can't do the rating, the fundraising there.

JAZZA: Oh my god, do I. I just have to do it, okay?

ROWAN: So it's you. So you, you have the definitive writing of this movie.