Episode 9: How Open is Open Embryo Adoption?

The Embryo Adoption Podcast

Just what does it mean to choose open embryo adoption through the National Embryo Donation Center (NEDC)? It’s a common question, and the answer looks different in every situation. NEDC moms Marti Bailey, Bethany Piechowski, and Nina Brenneman are sharing helpful insights in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. Learn more at embryodonation.org.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note there may be spelling, factual, or grammatical errors as this was generated by AI.)
00:01
Mark Mellinger
When it comes to embryo adoption, how open is open? Maybe another way to ask the question is, are there various levels of openness? And if so, what do they mean? That's what we're going to dive into today here on the embryo adoption podcast. I'm your host, mark Mellinger. Brought to you by the National Embryo Donation center. Embryodonation.org. If you want more information on what we do, three NEDC moms joining us today to talk about this. Bethany Piowski, Nina Brennaman and Marty Bailey. Ladies, so good to have you here. And Bethany and Marty, I'm going to start with you. You two chose open adoption. Nina chose closed. We'll talk with Nina in a second, but let's start with the two of you. Bethany and Marty. I don't care who wants to go first, but unpack why you chose to do open adoption, I'll go first.
00:53
Marti Bailey
Since mine are the oldest. I would say that I was asked to consider it at first because there was a mom in Knoxville and a dad who had donated their embryos and really wanted a very close relationship with someone in Knoxville. They were in Knoxville as well. And my husband and I prayed about it, and we decided sure we would do that. And the reason why they wanted a very close one is because they were older and they were afraid that when they died, their one only child would be without any family. And so we connected and talked before transfer. Unfortunately, those embryos, they didn't make the fall. So then my next one was so I did have a transfer. It was with closed, but I lost those. So then my next one, I was also once again told that, oh, there's this great family for you.
02:00
Marti Bailey
And because the embryologist knew I wanted a really large family and said, hey, they have 25 embryos, and so would you consider them? So I did, but I put limits on it because I knew from my first experience that I couldn't handle because I had gotten close to the family. So not only did I grieve for those embryos that didn't thaw out, I grieved for them not having that relationship that they desired for their child. And so, after that experience, I decided I've got to set some limits for myself. I cannot have contact with them until after a live birth. And so I did. And then my children were born early at 30 weeks. And so I contacted them, just letting them know health information. They were in the NICU for 40 days, 46 actually. And so I just gave them basic health information. And that is kind of why the donor mom donated her embryos.
03:13
Marti Bailey
She said she wanted somebody to contact her if they were in need of health emergency. She wanted to be able to help out. So it just started from there, and it evolved. So just kind of like any normal relationship, you have a starting point. You meet someone and you have something in common. For us, obviously, it was infertility and the embryos and you just kind of evolved from there. So we just started out giving information over the Internet, and it just kind of grew when we connected. So then she asked me, I invited her to her family was in Connecticut and I'm in Tennessee, but I went ahead and asked them to their first birthday party, which I figured they wouldn't come because it's a long trip and they declined, but they were thankful for the invitation. And then we just prayed about it and thought we'd like to meet.
04:15
Marti Bailey
And so we decided kind of on a neutral ground and we'd go on vacation together. And so that was our first meeting. And it was scary at first, but we ended up having a great time. And so then we just continued to email. And the next year went to their house in Connecticut and got to meet. And then at that point, were asked to do a blog together for the NEDC. And I would say at that point, once we started writing for the blog, we actually had less communication with each other because all we had to do was read each other's blogs and know what was going on in our life. So from there, we would just contact each other if we had questions or anything like that. So went to Disney together a couple of times when they were young. I would say we've had more contact when they were younger and we just hit it off.
05:21
Marti Bailey
Patty. And I did. I just felt like kindred spirits. And so were asked oftentimes at Disney if were sisters because we look so much alike. But as the children have gotten older, they just turned 15 yesterday. I have found that we have less communication with them. When they were in 6th grade, they were asked to go to their beach house and we dropped everything and went. And we had a great time. Their oldest sibling works at Disney. Last year were at Disney for their birthday and he so lovingly agreed to meet us. And then yesterday we just got a text, happy birthday to the twins. And so I haven't talked to him, but if I had a medical question, in fact, I did, because Julian had some allergies this year, I text her and say, hey, are your kids allergic to peanut butter? And I said, okay, this is all his allergies.
06:20
Marti Bailey
He just got tested. A lot of it started off as medical and then we grew a relationship, but life happens. And I would just say it's fluid, it's in and out. And my children have the option to contact their biological siblings or not. And it's kind of up to them. But I would say it's just kind of like all relationships. Sometimes it's gone closer and sometimes we haven't really talked at all. And we might just have a card in the mail at Christmas or something.
06:57
Mark Mellinger
Well, and that's a really good perspective, Marty. I really appreciate that. And one reason we're doing this podcast is to let people know that as beautiful as that relationship is, you've met in person several times, you've taken vacations together. That is not always what open looks like. That can be great if that's what you want. Other people thinking of something like that absolutely leaves them scared spitless. Now, Bethany, let's talk about your open situation, because to the degree that you're able, I know yours is not quite to the level of marty's, explain why you chose open and what parameters you wanted to set.
07:43
Bethany Piechowski
Sure. So when my husband and I first started going through the process, we didn't really know what we wanted. So were really seeking counsel from the social worker that were looking or that were working with, and we originally were planning on doing closed. And I guess, as an aside, what's really important in this is that there's no right or wrong answer whether you choose closed or open and whether you choose if you do choose open, if it's contact at age 18, or all the way to going on a vacation together. I think it's a very individual decision based on what the recipients are looking for, what the donors are looking for, and so on. So I think it's really important to point that out. But for us, we had originally opted for closed, and that's just what our gut told us. But we didn't know if that was the right thing.
08:40
Bethany Piechowski
And so in seeking counsel from the social worker, her she had shared just, I guess, the general concept of no surprises, right. Most kids will want to know where they came from. And so we really grabbed onto that perspective and thought, well, let's try to navigate down this path and see if that's something that makes sense to us, knowing that in this day and age, even if you choose closed, it's essentially open. Right. With the 23 ANDME and all of the resources that are out there, even those that choose closed eventually, whether it's now or down the line, probably have the option of finding at least some family members at some point, whether it's the original donors or related family members. But anyhow, so went down the path and made a decision to do open. And as we thought and prayed about it, we decided, let's really go for it and see if we can do a very open relationship.
09:54
Bethany Piechowski
And so it took us some time to get matched and we landed with a couple that we really thought we could have a great relationship with. So went into transfer and had a very transparent relationship. And then partway through the pregnancy, on the second transfer, our child's biological father passed away. And it changed the trajectory of the relationship, and we have the utmost respect for our child's biological mom and family, and we are very respectful of her needs and her wishes she had pulled back during that time, and we completely understand. So we are taking it one step at a time, and as the relationship unfolds and develops, we will go to where she wants, and that is perfectly okay with us. The benefits that we had identified for Open and what we had found to be valuable was the medical information side. Our child does have some medical issues, and we have needed that medical information in managing his health issues.
11:23
Bethany Piechowski
And so that has been helpful. So what was originally intended for Open has not turned out that way, and that's perfectly okay. So we take it one step at a time and with the utmost respect for the gift that were given, and we go from there. So where is it going? I don't know. And that's okay. We'll figure it out as we go.
11:49
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. And that's life, right? I have some follow up questions for both of you, Marty and Bethany. But Nina, I want you to jump in here. You chose closed. You have two NEDC children. Why did you decide to go closed?
12:05
Nina Brenneman
Well, I'm adopted. I was placed as a four day infant with a biological birth mother who chose adoption early on, created an adoption plan, the whole nine yards. My adoption has always been considered closed, and that was what I understood. And I chose closed because I can parent that. I can identify with all of the questions that are going to come up. I can emotionally understand and absolutely handle all of the questioning and the confusion and all of the things that are going to come up when my children have questions about their origin or understanding all of that. And they have a confusing origin. I mean, it's confusing to have a four year old to explain embryo adoption to a four year old. It's very easy to explain traditional adoption to a four year old, which is about the time I've always known I was adopted.
13:11
Nina Brenneman
But that's really about the time I remember conceptualizing what it was. Embryo adoption is not something that a four year old can grasp, much less a two year old. I mean, they parrot back their story. And so once that clicks, it's going to bring up a lot of confusion and a lot of questions. And I went through all of that because I did not have access to biological parents. I did not have access to much information about them just based on the nature of my adoption. So we chose closed because I can parent that. And quite frankly, choosing the closed route is just a lot more simple. You don't really have to parse out exactly what you're looking for. You don't have to sell yourself to or present yourself to the donor. The couples that are looking to place their embryos. And as I characterize it's a tomorrow problem.
14:19
Nina Brenneman
And so I felt confident and comfortable with it, more so than open. Just because of my story of origin and my family of origin and how I was raised, which is all positive. I see my adoption as a blessing and a positive inflection point in my life, and I'm grateful for it. So I can raise children that way, basically, is why we chose closed to put an additional kind of level of it's a little more complicated, just because of the origin, just because embryo adoption is not something a four year old, five year old, six year old is necessarily going to be able to understand. But we can deal with that and navigate it well because I've likely encountered all of those problems and concerns. And if my son we have a daughter and a son, and if my son, if Dean has questions that I may not be able to answer or identify with, my brother's adopted and we're very close, and so he can and will happily help in that aspect too.
15:28
Nina Brenneman
So we have the resources and we have the ability just by the nature of who we are. And so we felt more confident with that than pursuing open makes sense in your situation.
15:42
Mark Mellinger
I can completely see why you would choose Closed. And by the way, a disclaimer here. Before we get to some follow up questions for you all, we at the National Embryo Donation Center are not here to advocate one route over another. That's not at all the purpose of this podcast. That's nothing that we're here to do. We're really investigating what open can mean because that's something that is confusing to a lot of people. There are pros and cons as you look at each. Nina, you brought it up. If you go open, it's going to take longer. It's going to take a month to month and a half longer for your frozen embryo transfer to happen. It's going to be considerably more expensive. You're going to spend close to a couple of least that you wouldn't spend if you were going closed. On the other hand, there are advantages to open, as Bethany has pointed out.
16:40
Mark Mellinger
And Marty, there's the advantages of faster access to medical history, your child's genetic medical history, perhaps more readily accessible. Are there genetic origins? You can add a relationship, a beautiful relationship to your life, and usually that's how it works in open relationships. Not always. Sometimes that relationship you add actually gets messy and it's not a blessing. So there's no certainty, there's no guarantee, and there are pros and cons. Either way, I thought it was important to at least issue that disclaimer before we continue this interview. Okay, Marty and Bethany, I want to talk to both of you. Like Marty, it sounds like you ended up really pressing in to your relationship with your donor family more than you originally expected how much of what your relationship looks like now was dictated by your open donation agreement that you worked out with a social worker more than 15 years ago.
17:51
Marti Bailey
I can say I don't even remember what we even said. But I can tell you 100% that the donor mother 100% thought, I will just share my medical information. And because she had so many embryos, I will say she has two other families and they aren't as open as her and I that I know of. In fact, one of the other families has come to my house and I have met them and they have stayed with me, but they didn't feel comfortable meeting Patty and her family for whatever reason, and that's fine. That is a choice. So her open with them is interestingly, more closed off than with me, whatever, and that's fine. And like I said, I think it's changed because I think one, because of Natalie and Julian health, I think when they were born and were looking, are they going to live?
19:03
Marti Bailey
And just updating, okay, please pray for them. This is what we've got now. And just continuing, I think it connected them. Like, everybody's praying for these babies and thank you so much. Look how they've grown and look at answered prayers. And then she would just share more with me. And I'm like, oh, I could relate to that. And just as we got to know each other through email, back and forth, I remember the first time we talked on the phone, she couldn't get over my Southern accent. There was a lot of newness it was kind of frightening, honestly. But the Lord met me there and met both of us there, and I was scared to go to her house. I was fearful. But even her extended family, they welcomed us and loved on us. And when I walked into her house and went up the stairs, she had done a cross stitch birth announcement, the exact same one I had done for my children.
20:14
Marti Bailey
I don't think cross stitching is a huge thing people do much anymore. So I just felt that was God's reassurance, that it's going to be okay, you're doing the right thing. I'm here with you through the fear because it is scary. And I think any relationship is whether you're talking about a boyfriend, girlfriend, if you're talking about whatever, because it's uncertain, you don't know how it will go. But I do feel 100% blessed by it and would I like to have more information, maybe not information. If they lived closer, we would probably see each other more. But I don't feel any pressure to send them a birthday card or send them a card. If I forget, no big deal. If they forget, no big deal. So it's just to me, it's developed now into a normal relationship where just life happens. And now Natalie and Julian have the option.
21:23
Marti Bailey
But I can tell you their biological brother felt really blessed to see them last year on their birthday. And he really enjoyed, because he has two brothers, seeing how much Natalie and Julian are like him and his brothers, like how different they are, like, oh, yeah, Natalie's really shy. That's like my brother Chad. Or Julian's really outgoing, and he loves basketball. That's like my brother Joel. So that was really cool, I think, to see those different characteristics and see how they are in his family.
22:02
Mark Mellinger
Yeah, that's great. And I love that you pointed out that your donor family does not have the same level of openness with some of their other recipient couples as they do with you. That is a truth that we really want to highlight and bring out as a result of this podcast, is that open relationships can constitute everything from near closed. You exchange an email, a letter, once a year. Maybe you share social media handles to going on vacation, seeing each other in person from time to time, as you all have. Bethany, yours is a little different, it sounds to me. Bethany, tell me if I'm wrong. I sure certainly could be. It sounds to me like whatever was decided in your open donation agreement, it's actually perhaps the opposite of what Marty's case is. You're probably not having as much contact as you stipulated, right?
23:05
Bethany Piechowski
Yes. You go through and you set forth what your intentions are for frequency and types of contact. And yes, in our case, there's less. And that's okay, right? We hope and pray that it opens more as originally intended. But if it doesn't, then it doesn't. Our son's biological family is working through sharing the existence of our son and this process with him. And so our son has a biological brother, and that is becoming news to him. And so our collective hope, our son's biological mom, we believe, hopes based on what she shared, as well as we certainly hope that the two boys will at some point have a relationship as they grow. And they used one embryo and we used four, and that was what was in the batch. And so there are no other biological children in the group, and so maybe at some point that will develop.
24:22
Bethany Piechowski
But yes, what we had originally intended in our agreement is not where we are today. And we respect that. Right. The best laid plans don't always work out that's life. And if it had turned out where we only had contact at age 18, then we would have respected that too. So I just think it's important to if you choose open, it's good to remember that you can have any level of openness from contact at age 18 or 25 or whatever the age is, all the way to going on vacation together. But if you stay stuck in what's in your agreement, and you are so firm about that, you're going to miss the potential for some flux in the relationship. And that's just the value of real life, that those things happen. So we will take it one day at a time.
25:25
Mark Mellinger
Nina, you were telling me before we had this conversation that you're not dissatisfied with the choice you made. Clearly, closed was the right choice for you for the reasons that you mentioned. But you do say you didn't necessarily understand fully what open constituted when you and your husband were beginning the process with the NEDC. What do you wish would have been done differently? And would you have spent more time considering the option had you have better knowledge?
26:03
Nina Brenneman
Sure. So under the NEDC's definition of open, choosing an open relationship, my very closed, very anonymous, traditional infant adoption would be considered open. So to further parse that out, my mom, my parents, from the day I was placed with them until I was 21, sent biannual updates to my adoption agency was just so that my birth family, should they choose to, could follow up and get non identifying, updated information on us. She did that for my brother. We were raised with a bunch of friends who were gladney babies, my adoption agency, and same thing for all of them too. It was just common practice. When I turned 25, my adoption agency got in touch with my mom and told me that my biological mother had passed away due to a cardiac condition that was genetic. Because her father, my maternal biological grandfather, was able to reach out to the adoption agency to share that information.
27:22
Nina Brenneman
I was able to get screened. Should I have it, were going to be able to catch it and I would have been fine. That is considered open with Annie DC?
27:36
Mark Mellinger
Yes.
27:37
Nina Brenneman
And so my biological family never followed up to get information on me, but it didn't change my life. My brother's biological family, through his paternal aunts and uncles and grandparents and maternal, he had a very supportive biological family that did check up on him multiple times a year. And so it was closed until he was 32 and chose to initiate contact with them. Right. I have not chosen to initiate further contact just based on my preference. That being said, that would all be considered open with the NDC. And I did not know that was not further parsed out in any of the preliminary education or kind of the initial meetings discussing about the NADC and what open was and what closed was. So we just chose closed. I think that obviously, the children the Lord intends to give you, however they come about, are going to come about regardless of open or closed.
28:53
Nina Brenneman
Embryo adoption, traditional adoption, biological parenting, carrying them the traditional way, I think it's all going to work out the way the Lord intends. But had we had that information, it would have opened up a different level of conversation between me andrew, my husband, on what we both felt comfortable with and it obviously would have opened up the potential donors. I mean, it would have opened up the batches of embryos and it would have given us a greater potential. And if it hadn't worked or weren't able to find a family, that would be kind of more into the child led contact at 18 intermediary discussion, the very closed open, the closed side of open, then anonymous or closed would have been fine too. But to Bethany's point, nothing is truly anonymous anymore. I mean, we can do 23, ANDME when children are 16 or 18 and really want that, I can do it.
30:06
Nina Brenneman
If I really need to do that. I can also go through Gladney and get all of the information, should I choose to do that. But the piece about the life saving medical information is kind of the linchpin to why we would have considered a very closed side of open, because that condition is treatable if it's known, but it's rarely diagnosed before autopsy.
30:38
Bethany Piechowski
To that point. It can also be for the benefit of the donors because something may come up with your biological child that your donors family hasn't seen but could see. Right. So there's a benefit in both directions and to the extent that open is chosen, but just for medical information, it can be just that. It doesn't have to morph into anything else. Right. And many donors want it that way as well.
31:08
Nina Brenneman
Right. And I just think that information was not as clearly I don't know if it was clearly defined necessarily five years ago when we started doing that, or if I just missed it, I very easily could have just missed it.
31:28
Bethany Piechowski
I think it's important for the donor nurses to have these conversations with the donors and the recipient nurses to have these conversations with the recipients. And like we've said a number of times, there's no right or wrong answer here. We're not advocating for closed versus open because it's a very individual decision, but there's education to be had in the options, I guess.
31:50
Marti Bailey
Absolutely.
31:55
Nina Brenneman
I have been pretty staunchly in the closed or anonymous group, mainly because you can feel a lot of pressure from kind of the social workers that you talk to about your home study and you go through. When you're reviewing your home study and the pre transfer education you need to go through, you can feel the pressure for open. And I took that personally because I have a closed adoption and so I have previously been in the very much like closed adoption children. The anonymous embryo adoption route is going to raise happy, healthy, flexible, resilient children. Just like parents who choose open, whatever end of the spectrum they choose, it whether it's open or just medical information. Maybe contact at 18, they're going to be able to raise the same children, the same types of kids. At the end of the day, both of them are completely valid and there should be no pressure either way.
33:02
Nina Brenneman
To Bethany's point, my closed, very anonymous adoption from the perspective of an embryo of the NEDC specifically is not closed. Right. Which is fine. I just wish that had been more of a point made while were choosing what route we wanted to go.
33:27
Mark Mellinger
These are really important points. And before we run just a couple things by way of response, I would say, Nina, it's an excellent point, really. We have now four people doing what one person was doing when the three of you came through the organization. So I will say this is one area where I think the NEDC has improved. We're always trying to get better. It's extremely possible that you didn't miss it when you went through. I would say it's it's entirely possible that, yeah, you know, it's it was the former of what you said and not the latter, so we are always trying to get better, and we've really beefed up our recipient and donor nurse and coordination teams. And I know the ladies that we have now in those roles are pretty firm on elucidating exactly what each route involves. But it's a good reminder if you're going through ask questions whether you're donating embryos, whether you're adopting embryos.
34:38
Mark Mellinger
Just like when you go to the doctor, there is no such thing as a stupid question. You can email us, you can call us. If you don't get through to somebody else, email me or call me. I'll make sure you get through. That never bothers us where we want you to make the best decision for you and to be fully informed. Also, by way of explanation, I think it was just an important caveat to add, even if you go closed, you can still have access to that medical information. We have anonymous donors who do call. If a previously undiagnosed condition emerges, they let us know, and then it is passed on to the recipient family. So it's certainly more likely to happen. The access will be easier and more likely right, if you're open. But it can still happen and does still if you are if you're closed.
35:36
Mark Mellinger
So man, such a good conversation. It's hard to know exactly how to end it, but I guess we'll do it here. I mean, each of you talk about the best part of what you chose and the hardest part. Let's start with you, Marty.
35:59
Marti Bailey
I think the best part for me is seeing the children together and getting to see them laugh and cut up, because to me, it's all about the kids. When it boils down to it, that's what it's really about. So I enjoyed seeing them at Disney and seeing them enjoy their relationship. And I guess the hardest part is just being are you able to allow more people into your heart? Because the more people you allow, more things that can happen. But I've had a good situation, so I don't know.
36:53
Nina Brenneman
But.
36:53
Marti Bailey
I guess it just gives me more people to pray for. My list is just longer.
36:58
Mark Mellinger
Bethany?
36:59
Bethany Piechowski
I would say the best part is just the opportunities that exist in navigating this, right, and the opportunities to pray through it and knowing what potentials could be there. And if they're not there, then that's okay. So we see that as an opportunity and a bright side, I don't really see a downside. All of us going through this process are going to navigate the same issues, which is how do you explain this to your kids at the end of the day, whether you choose Open or closed, how do you explain this to your kids? And our NADC kiddo is five, like Nina's four year old, he doesn't really get it. It's a general conversation that we have around our house. Our kids are aware of this, but eventually it's going to click. There will be some, I'll say, explaining to do, right, because they need to be aware, but we don't really necessarily see that as a downside as opposed to just something that will be part of their story no matter which route is taken.
38:16
Bethany Piechowski
So not necessarily a hard part, but just kind of a fact of life for all of us that are going through this process. But as it relates to a downside of choosing Open, we don't see a downside. We feel pretty blessed.
38:35
Mark Mellinger
Nina, do you have a last word for us?
38:37
Nina Brenneman
I do. So the best part of choosing Closed is that we have these two beautiful babies that are happy and healthy and fun and keep our hands and hearts full. I mean, that's really the end goal, right? So we're grateful to the Lord for that and to the NADC and the donors and all of that. I think, again, the hard part is just going to would be the same if we chose Open. It's just explaining this complicated concept as they continue to get older and just knowing some of the questions and concerns and things that are likely going to come up. Because I've been through it, maybe that's the hard part, but I don't necessarily see that as hard because I was raised with a bunch of kids and still am friends with a bunch of adopted children, people who are adopted as infants. And it's a wonderful thing and a great story.
39:43
Nina Brenneman
And again, it all works out that's kind of the biggest thing I want to say is that it all works out the way that it should on the timing that it should. It may not be the way you necessarily want it in the beginning, but it works out the way that it should and it turns into a wonderful blessing. And if it was easy, everybody would do it. And so often the things you work the hardest for have the sweetest reward. And I think that kind of is the bottom line for me. Choosing Closed and totally anonymous multiple layers of anonymity in our situation is a good thing. I think it will eventually be a good thing. Still is a good thing, because we have two wonderful children because of that. So that's kind of my two cent.
40:40
Bethany Piechowski
Well, let me say one more thing.
40:42
Mark Mellinger
Bethany.
40:42
Bethany Piechowski
Yeah, sure. That's such a good message. Nina and Mark, you and I were just having this conversation earlier this week of our expectations in whatever it is rarely God's path. And so trusting and praising him for him versus what actually unfolds. And what we had intended and hoped hasn't turned out the way we had intended and hoped. And we respect where we are, and we very much respect our donors. And that is what God has intended. Right.
41:24
Mark Mellinger
Well said. Well said. If you're listening to this and you have any questions at all about this, feel free to get in touch with us at the National Embryo Donation Center. Our website is embryodonation.org. You can go to the About US page and you'll see my email address on there. You can email me directly if you have further questions. We really hope that this podcast episode, at least, is a beginning of you hopefully understanding what the different levels of openness can look like through the NEDC and to the point that Nina made earlier. Don't put pressure on yourself, which sometimes people do, whether it's intended or not. I don't think it usually is, but they may internalize something that's said to them and put pressure to go in one direction or another. No. This is between you and your spouse and the Lord. And there is, as you all have said, no wrong answer. Thanks again, ladies. So great to have the time with you. I'm Mark Mellinger, and this has been the embryo adoption podcast.