The Danbury Trashers -Trash On and Off the Rink

Organized Crime and Punishment

Title: The Danbury Trashers -Trash On and Off the Rink

Original Publication Date: 10/18/2023

Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/fGOuaYx9PwB

Description:

In the second part of the Organized Crime and Punishment podcast's two-part episode on the Danbury Trashers, the focus remains on the intriguing story of this minor league hockey team's entanglement with organized crime.

In this episode, the hosts delve deeper into the Trashers' ties to the underworld and the consequences faced by those involved. They explore the team's financial dealings with notorious figures, highlighting how this partnership impacted both the players and the league itself.

The episode also sheds light on the legal repercussions faced by key individuals within the organization, offering a gripping account of their trials and punishments. Throughout, the Steve, Mustache and Frank discuss hockey, law enforcement and the Mafia to provide a comprehensive understanding of this remarkable tale.

Best Hashtags: #DanburyTrashers #OrganizedCrime #HockeyUnderworld #CrimeAndPunishment #MinorLeagueHockey #hockey #NHL

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Begin Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment, the best spot in town to hang out and talk about history and crime, with your hosts, Steve and Mustache Chris.

Hey, friends of ours, this is Steve here. This is the second part of a two part conversation on the Mafia and Hockey. I'm joined by Frank and, as usual, Mustache Chris. If you like what you hear, you can go back and listen to part one to get some more context for this episode, or just dive right in. They both work really well individually, or even better as a team.

So let's dive [00:01:00] right in. One of the corollaries to the, to the wrestling aspect of it was the fighting, and anybody who's even semi aware of hockey. Knows that fighting is a part of hockey, Chris, and then we'll bounce it over to Frank. What's your opinion on fighting in hockey? I'll say right off the bat, like it is kind of bizarre.

We're I think it was, uh, there's a clip, there's a famous clip of, like, Joe Rogan talking about hockey, and it's just like, it's the weirdest sport in the world, where, like, they're just playing the sport, and then all of a sudden, people are dropping the gloves, and they're just beating the crap out of each other, and it is truly bizarre, there's no other sport in the world that just, that happens, there isn't, like, I know there's, like, a little bit of roughhousing in football, and once in a while, maybe, people in basketball, they're like, Throw some slaps and maybe sometimes in baseball people will like charge them out.

But like, like a, like a fist fight, like a one on one fist fight that goes on in hockey, like there's [00:02:00] nothing compares to it. And the fact that like, say like happens in baseball, it's like, oh, like that's out of the ordinary in hockey. It's like, no, it's just part of the game. This is what you do. It's, it's, uh, it's interesting, like the history of fighting and hockey from everything that I've read, like really early on.

It wasn't all that common, uh, like it would happen, obviously, right? Uh, you know, like, more frequently than any other sport. It actually, I believe it was around the 60s and 70s is when it really started kicking off where teams like the the Flyers, as Frank will probably tell you about, um, Saw an opportunity where they maybe they weren't as skilled as some of the other teams, but the intimidation factor fighting and the hard hitting, uh, became like a level or so you could bring the basically like kind of nullify this skill and the speed of another team if you beat the crap out of them enough.

And I mean, it works. It's part of the [00:03:00] game, really. There's no way around it. It's just, um, I don't think it's ever going to leave. I mean, I'm quite, I'm, to be honest with you, I'm happy. They've changed a bunch of rules where, and just because the rule changes, the game has gone so much faster. So you can't just have like a guy out there whose, whose only job is to like fight.

There's still a couple of them. I mean, the Leafs just kind of recently signed a guy named Ryan Reeves. He's like the heavyweight champ of hockey right now. But, yeah. He can still play to a degree. He can't play like, not gonna be playing him a ton, but he can still kind of keep up. Um, a lot of like the old school, like traditional tough guys that were, we think of like Ty Domi, uh, you know, that's a Leaf one right there.

He couldn't play today's end. Yeah. Bob, Rob, well, Bob Prober could actually play tmi. was like, Ty TMI was like, I, I don't know how much he could actually play. Uh, um. He couldn't keep up with today's game just because the rule changes, but the fighting it's it's never going to [00:04:00] leave. It's always going to be there.

And the intimidation factor is huge in hockey because I've seen it. I've seen it personally just over the last couple of season with the Leafs where the Leafs are a skill team. They're fast, but a team like Boston, who's not afraid to face wash you, you know, beat the crap out of you, that intimidation factor, it does it.

I don't care what anybody says. It changes how the other team plays. They're less likely to go into the corners. Maybe they're a little scared to go in front of the net. Um, so you need, you need that aspect on your team and the trashers. I mean, I think they went a little bit overboard with that. What aspect of the game, but they said right off the bat, like we wanted a team that was going to beat you up.

And beat you literally, like beat you in the game and they accomplished that. So you would say that it's an integral part of the game. Could you have hockey without the fighting aspect? Well, you do, you do, you do in, in women's hockey, you don't have fighting either. And in [00:05:00] college hockey, it's, it's rare.

And, and the thing is, is it's really two different kinds of fighting. If you go back in history, or it comes to hockey, you know, The further back you go, the less, uh, less safety equipment, the players war, right? I mean, you take off the visors, then you take off the helmets and then off come the shoulder pads and then the shin pads.

And pretty soon you're just down to a pair of skates and, and, and, and some gloves maybe. Right. And, and this entire time from whatever, 19, whenever they founded the league. And even before that, when they were still, uh, professionals playing, there's only one referee. And, you know, there's 10 skaters out there, I mean, there were 12 at one point plus 2 goalies, but now they're, you know, for the longest time, there's been 10.

There's, there's no way 1 referee is going to see everything. And so people took liberties with the stick or, or, you know, speared, hooked, slashed, whatever, uh, the ref isn't going to see that. And if you want to dissuade that [00:06:00] from happening, then you, yeah. You know, go punch the guy in the nose and next time he won't slash you.

And, and I, and I just was kind of a gentleman. It was a rougher time in our history. Uh, and I think people accepted that, that people could have a disagreement and it could end in fisticuffs. Uh, and then at the end of it, they went and sat in the box for five minutes. Uh, if they were allowed to have a beer together, they probably would most of them.

And then they go back out and play again, but it did affect behavior to a degree. And then what Chris was alluding to. Round about the late sixties, when the expansion happened and you got six more teams in the league, including the flyers, they, uh, they got pushed around one year by the Bruins and by, by St.

Louis and Ed Snyder said, we're not, that's not happening anymore. We're going to get some tough guys and nobody's pushing us around. So they did. And what they discovered was, yeah, they're not getting pushed around. Their thing. But then the entertainment factor kicked in. People started to like to see somebody pounding the snot out [00:07:00] of somebody in an opposing Jersey.

And then that became not just entertainment, but like Chris just said, intimidation as well. I mean, when the broad streets, the broad street bullies were at their height, there's a thing known as the Philadelphia flu. Which basically meant players when they came to Philadelphia to play suddenly came down with the flu and didn't want to play that night.

You know, it was kind of a joke, but it was also a real thing. And, you know, I mean, Dave, that hammer Schultz had like 400. 27 or some penalty minutes one year. It's insane. Like the guy who has the most in the league today is around a hundred or so, you know, it's just a crazy number. Um, so that entertainment factor kind of kicked in and, and it, and it, it.

Got to the point where it was as bad as what you saw in that documentary and Danbury, that was the NHL in the, in the, uh, mid seventies. And I mean, that's where the joke came from. I went to a [00:08:00] boxing match and a hockey fight broke out. I mean, that's, that's, it was that common. Uh, and ultimately they said, okay, enough is enough.

This is too much. Uh, we're having bench clearing brawls. We're having, you know, just too, it's, it's becoming thuggery and our skill guys can't. Play the game without getting mugged. And, and so we're going to clean it up. And so they started, you know, uh, the instigator penalty, and then they started giving, you know, third fight and you get a suspension, all these different rules to try to cut down on the number of times somebody fought.

I don't know if it was you or Chris that said it, but you made a very valid point. They never said no fighting. They did because it's against the rules, but they, I mean, if you really wanted to get rid of it, they do what every other rule, what every other sport does. And that's if you fight, you're suspended maybe for a game, maybe for a season.

Maybe you're suspended for life. I mean, it depends on the, on the sport and the severity and all of that. But if you wanted to get rid of it, that would debate way to be the way to do it. But the league recognized there [00:09:00] still was some inherent value to that self policing element that the rest aren't going to see everything, even though they added a second element.

And it's a fast sport with the, you know, I mean, people are going to get emotional a lot more so than some of the other sports. Football is one that I think could be the equivalent. But the thing about football is, is you get a little bit of time to cool down. In between place, you don't get that in hockey.

It's constant. And, you know, basketball is constant, but the contact isn't there. The hitting isn't there. Baseball is slower than molasses. It's, it's interesting because something's always going on, even when nothing's going on. Uh, but. You know, how often do you get something explosive happening in baseball?

Usually when somebody throws a couple of brushback pitches or something, you know, that's about it. So I think they recognize, you know, better that, that we can just kind of control it rather than try to get rid of it. Cause if we get rid of it, people are going to take liberties [00:10:00] and people are going to get spared and all this other stuff's going to happen with greater frequency because the refs aren't going to be able to catch everything.

Now there's 800 different arguments. Surrounding everything I just said, uh, but the biggest point, I guess, is when you say it's an integral part of the game. Historically, it has been an integral part of the NHL and it remains, uh, apart, but at a diminished level. What Danbury did. What AJ Galante did is he got players who could bring back literally the broad street bullies style of play because the flyers weren't just beating the hell out of people.

They were beating them on the scoreboard too. Most of the time. I mean, they won the Stanley cup in 74 and 75. On the back of not just beating people up that you don't get any goals for smacking somebody in the face. They don't just start going, Hey, that's three punches. Now you're up three, zero on the scoreboard.

You got to put the puck in the net too. And Danbury did that as well. Like I said, their record was really good. And they show clips of some pretty nice [00:11:00] little goals. Um, I mean, I thought they were pretty nice goals, Chris, you saw it. I mean, they seem like they had a couple of players. Oh, yeah, for sure. Even, uh, probably one of the more, um, Brad, um, blanking on his name right now, Brad Wingfield, Wing.

Yeah, Wingfield. Yeah, they interviewed him a lot in that. They interviewed him a lot. He was actually, he's known as like the, one of the big fighters and, uh, big fighters on the team. And he was that, but he also was on the same line as Brent Gretzky. You know, he could play, you know, he will. And then that's the unfortunate part about him.

And I did. They touched on it a little bit in the documentary where he was on pace for 30 some odd goals and like over 1000 minutes or something like that before he got his leg horribly snapped in half, which is just that's that's just incredible. Like, well, you'll, you know, you you. And the NHL, I mean, there's a couple of examples of that.

I think like Cam Neely was one of those guys. Um, that's just like right off the top of my head. Just like the [00:12:00] total package player was like that. Uh, Wendell Clark famous pop and 40 goals and, you know, have like a ton of penalty minutes and fun draws was, uh, was close to that. He, he, he would get a fair amount of penalty minutes and some fights and score a ton of goals.

The thing that made the trashers like you trashers unique in the sense of like you brought it up or most teams even to this day the least have in the NHL at least have like one guy who's like the fighter some teams will have like kind of couple guys um even like uh in the 90s you'd have maybe two guys that were like fighters that you know push comes to shove they'll you know they'll throw the gloves down and they'll fight.

The Trashers had like six or seven guys. So I think it wasn't like dependent on like one guy doing all the fighting. I think one guy wanted to take a night off and be like, you know, like my hand hurts or my nose is broken. You know, you, you have another five guys who are willing to step up and fill it, fill that void.

So like at no point during the regular season [00:13:00] or the playoffs, or there are not guys out there that were going to beat the crap out of you because they just had an army of them. And that's why you had multiple scraps every game. That's what the commissioner was complaining about. And, and it just. You know, the, the crowd loves it.

I mean, I, again, I mean, I used to be a season ticket holder for the junior team in Spokane, the Spokane chiefs, 2008 Memorial cup champions, URA. And you know, when the gloves would come off, people would get out of their seats and it wasn't to go to the bathroom. I mean, there wasn't many people who didn't like a good scrap the, the people, there were a few, obviously there are a few.

The thing that people tended not to like as much were the staged fights, you know, or people just take off the gloves when the puck drops and it's a big, you know, uh, some people didn't mind other people. They were, I don't know. I got to the point where I was like, if you know, if they wouldn't do that, They probably just leave fighting alone.

If it just happened organically, the frequency with which it would [00:14:00] happen and the nature people would probably leave it alone for much longer, but they didn't really get into it in the documentary. But I got the sense that a lot of those fights were of the stage nature and forced and, and that starts to catch the eye of somebody like the commissioner.

But Hey, did you guys notice that the commissioner went from really down on the The trashers seemingly in the early parts of that documentary and about the midpoint, right about the time where it became obvious that Jimmy Galante was pretty closely associated with a major crime mob family. Suddenly he's a little bit of a fan of, I mean, did that.

Yeah, he really did. There was a definite turn. I would say, Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure he got, uh, you know, I'm sure he got an envelopes, you know, in his mailbox or something like that, you know, or efficient as bad baby. Apparently, I was listening to a podcast with A. J. And he was talking about, like, all the suspensions or whatever.

So it's like the [00:15:00] commissioner would be calling off Jimmy and be like, Oh, yeah, you got to pay this and pay this and this fine and this fine. And apparently he would be like, Apparently just would just start wiring 10 grand like every week or something like to the commissioner being like, you're like, yeah, here, here, the fines are going to stop calling me on a Monday.

Like, I'm busy. I got, I got stuff to do and it just like, I'm sure, like, I'm sure the commissioner was taking a little bit of that money himself. Well, he retired to Las Vegas. So who knows? The team really did capture that whole aspect of the, of the entertainment. Like when we would go, when I was a kid, I go to Sabre's games and I was there basically to watch fights either on the ice or in the crowd behind us.

That's what I wanted to see. And my brother was the one, he would sit there and he wanted to see how plays unfolded and you know, the, the artistry of the, the skaters and all of that. You know, everybody is somewhere on the spectrum between [00:16:00] spectacle and then wanting to watch, uh, a fair game. I want both. I want both.

I want the, I want the beauty of the sport. I want the Pavel Bureys. I want the Paul Correas, but, uh, you know, if somebody's Being a rat or somebody throws a dirty hit, I want to see the gloves fly too. And I want to see my guy pound your guy pretty good, you know? And, and so I, you know, I don't think there's, there's the two are not mutually exclusive.

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It's funny though, because like as much as they've been trying to clean up the game, [00:17:00] really at the end of the day, if you look at the last kind of, the last couple of Stanley Cup winners, what do they have? They. They have the skilled guys, but they also have the rats usually playing in the bottom six. And sometimes their skilled guys are rats too.

I mean, if you look at Tampa Bay's famous for being a dirty team, I mean, I think Colorado kind of last, uh, Colorado was like, they didn't really play that type of style, but like Vegas this year, they Definitely played that type of style and if you look St. Louis was famous for just for, you know, being tough, intimidating type of hockey.

Like at the end of the day, like an all skill team is just most of the time. It's not just not going to do it. You need a mix. And I mean, even the trashers kind of understood that we're like, right. It was like when they're making a run for the colonial cop and Jimmy's like, you know what, just get me a goal scorer.

And they, they signed, that's when they signed Mike Rob, right? Yeah. And they had Bora guard, who the one I'd guy who, who [00:18:00] was pretty talented before he got injured. And, uh, uh, and he, he could put the puck in the net and the two brothers, the one guy that always interrupted the other brother all the time. Um, those guys were.

You know, those were 1 was 1 was more of an assist, man, and the other was more of a goal score, but they, you know, they were talented for that level of play. And you're right. You need a mix like any team. You need a mix of people playing different roles for the team to be successful. Because if you don't have that mix, the team you're going up against is going to.

Take that one dimensional play that you're able to offer, and they're going to find the weakness in it. And they're going to pound on it until they beat you. You have to be more, more well rounded. And to do that, you need players who can fill different roles, uh, you know, defensive defensemen, you know, an offensive defenseman, you need a sniper, you need guys that can pass, you need guys that can bang, you need guys who can eat minutes.

I mean, just all kinds of different roles. And, and for being a, you know, the thing is, is when, when that show started and they [00:19:00] brought out AJ, I had the same reaction that the commissioner actually gave voice to in his interview, I saw AJ and I was like, what a punk, what a little goof, my God, I forgot what a goof this kid is, but then if you sit back and look at it objectively.

You can argue whether he should have tried to accomplish what he accomplished or not. You can argue the goal if you want to, but you can't argue that he didn't achieve exactly the goal he set out to achieve. He built a team that had skill and toughness that provided one hell of a spectacle that just the fans became enamored with.

He, they intimidated the opponents and they made it all the way to the colonial cup championship, um, in their inaugural season. I mean, yeah. That you can't argue with those results punk 17 year old kid that looks goofy with his chains in his turn sideways hat and all that aside, uh, you know, you just have to admit the results are there, right?

Well, [00:20:00] yeah, that's the craziest thing. Like he's a 17 year old kid did this right from the impression that I get his daddy got a kick out of it and like enjoyed watching the games and how much fun his son was having and like all that part of it. Obviously he was the one providing all the cash, but. I think he had a pretty hands off approach in terms of like how the team was constructed and like the philosophical approach to how to play the game.

And it seems like it's very fitting that the owner was, you know, essentially a mob associate running a business like waste management and doing the things that he was alleged to have been doing. I mean, that, that team. So perfectly fit the persona of its owner. I mean, it was, it was him personified. Was it not?

Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, like, that's what it's great. Like, the, the documentary itself is like, I think they're 1 of the reasons that works so well. And everyone who's that I've ever. Uh, told to watch and [00:21:00] ends up watching it. I think one of the reasons they like it so much is because as ridiculous as the story is, it's real and the people come across as real.

Like the AJ doesn't come across like he's playing a character. Jimmy doesn't come across like he's playing a character. None of the equipment guys, even the equipment guy, uh, Teddy or whatever his name was, the guy with the cigar, that guy was hilarious. And my wife pointed out, my wife pointed out when we were done watching it, I, I I clicked it off and, and, uh, you know, I told her I was coming on this show and everything.

So she, she knew about that. I asked her, Hey, you know, what'd you think? And she goes, it's so interesting because these guys are criminals. They're literally criminals and, and not of the blue, the white collar variety. I mean, they're threatening people. They're blowing up or setting trucks on fire. There's, you know, I mean, how many counts, 103 counts or some crazy number is what they charged him with.

And yet they come across as [00:22:00] likable guys. Jimmy is likable in, in the flashback stuff and the, in the footage they show, uh, you know, the older stuff. And then in the interviews that they conduct with them that are contemporaneous to when this was made, same with AJ, same with, uh, whatever the equipment manager guy's name was.

He was a little bit of a caricature, but he was still. Like likable guy, and when you see him go into the bar for that 10 year reunion of the section 102 people, the big like super fans, there's joy on their faces. Both both the people in the bar and the characters going in, you know, that Jimmy and those folks, they're hugging, they're They're toasting.

They're telling stories. I mean, it's the, it's, it's like the Sopranos, right? Like when you watch the Sopranos, you get to like, at some points in the show, you get to like Tony Soprano. You get to be sympathetic with Tony Soprano. And then he goes and does something absolutely horrific and reminds you that he's a total piece of garbage human being.[00:23:00]

And you get to be uncomfortable until the next episode with that. It was very similar in that regard with, with these, these folks there, they're likable even though they're despicable. Well, we, we, we, uh, got into that when we were researching, I think it was Donnie Brasco and me and Steve were talking about, you know, uh, Sonny Black, uh, who was, was the, the capo, uh, one of, was a capo in the Bonanno family, and he was like the, It was basically running the crew.

He comes across as a likable guy from what you're reading, like playing pranks with people and I think he had like, uh, he was wrestling Donnie Brasco, um, with Joe Pistone or whatever they were having arm wrestling matches all the time and Joe Pistone would beat him all the time and he, uh, Just say, Oh, I'm going to beat you this time.

And he's like, well, I don't understand. Like, I beat you every other time. And he's just like, spits in his face. And then it slams his, uh, fist fist on the ground. It's like, and like, every, you read the guy and he seems likable. And even show up a stone said, like, sunny black was a likable guy. He [00:24:00] said, like, out of all the things that happened afterwards.

Um, him getting whacked was, was one of the things that he does regret, because he legitimately likes Sonny Black, and he was hoping that Sonny Black would just turn, you know, state witness, which never happened. He, you know, he kept Emerita right to his death. And if you watch the movie, if it's any, any...

Percentage of accurate. I mean, the, the character of Donnie Brasco ends up having a greater affinity for the people he's undercover with in his own organization. I mean, they treat him like hell. I mean, that scene where they hurry him in, give him a quick award and hurry out. I mean, that's just despicable.

Um, and so, so, yeah, you have these, these yeah. You know, I think that's why they do well in the community. And of course it doesn't hurt that they're paying for, you know, all these things in the community. So there's something tangible that is making the lives of some people in the community better. I mean, now there's a [00:25:00] football field to play on or the scoreboard is brand new or whatever it is that they're paying for and they're supporting the girl scouts and their cookie drive and all this other stuff.

Uh, they start to become, like I said before, maybe, you know, kind of folk heroes almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Putting on your, uh, your police hat, if, as it were, Frank, when we talk about fighting, because like, if I got into a fight in the Walmart with somebody, you're going to probably put us into handcuffs and bring us to jail.

But on the hockey rink, it's, uh, nobody ever, or it's a very, very infrequent. And I know you and Chris will have some examples of where The law enforcement agencies and prosecutors and that sort of thing get involved. What is the line between being on the ice and being in the stands as far as when you, uh, throw fists?

Well, the stands is no different than the Walmart behavior wise. [00:26:00] So that, that's an easy answer there. If you're in the stands and you're acting like a, like a ding dong and you get in a fight, you're just as liable for whatever you do is if you're being the same at, in the Walmart parking lot or anywhere else.

But when you're involved in a sporting event, you know, there's an expectation of, of, of certain, uh, Things happening within that event. I mean, uh, you're, if you go to a boxing match, you know, that nobody's going to be charging anybody with assault, right? They've agreed by participating that they're going to punch each other.

It's a tacit admission that you could be involved in this when you are playing in a professional hockey league like the NHL. Uh, not so much. Thank you. With like recreational hockey so much, but, you know, they were talking about the pros here. Um, and so, because even though it's against the rules and even though it's, it's, it's penalized five, five for fighting, right?

You go into the box and feel shame. It it's, it's also kind of condoned because. [00:27:00] Nothing else happens if you pay your, you know, you do your time, you do your five minutes. And so if, if two guys, for whatever reason, fight, it's not a big deal. There's no law enforcement involvement at all. When it crosses the line, uh, it has to be something very egregious.

And we were talking about a couple of examples from the NHL before we went live, uh, on the show. Um, one that, uh, The Chris mentioned 1st was the Todd Bertuzzi and Steve Moore incident, and that in a nutshell, just involved them being angry at a player for something that had happened in previous games.

And the code in hockey kind of is, if you do something that makes the other team legitimately mad, like you hit somebody and hurt them, or you do a dirty play or something like that, and somebody challenges you to fight. You got to answer the bell. That's the code, right? I mean, everybody, it's not written down anywhere, but that's the code.

And Moore was not a fighter and he wasn't going to fight. And so Todd Bertuzzi trying to get him to fight, followed him [00:28:00] around for a bit. He ended up cross checking him from behind. And then when he fell to the ice, he cross checked him again and his head hit the ice and he ended up damaging his spine.

And, and there was Police involvement, there was prosecutorial involvement there, uh, and I, did that, that happened in Vancouver, didn't it? Didn't that happen in Vancouver, Chris? Yeah, that was, that was in Canada. And that was in Canada that happened in, uh, yeah, I believe. Yeah, for sure. I positive that I'd happened in Vancouver.

I know he was playing for Vancouver at the time. And, um, Colorado was the team that more was playing for. Ironically, the other one we were talking about also involved the Vancouver. Player, um, this, this time on the receiving end, um, and that was a player named Donald Brashear, who, uh, another, who was a known fighter, who was an enforcer.

He had a little bit of skill, but not a ton. And then Marty McSorley who wrote, uh, Road shotgun for, for Wayne Gretzky for a lot of years. And he was definitely an [00:29:00] enforcer. He was upset with Brashear. What was he doing? What Chris, why was he upset? I don't remember what he was upset about. They, uh, I guess they would have been getting under each other's skin.

And like Donald Brashear was like cross checking him, sparing him, you know, probably saying stuff to him, like during the entire game and. Marty McSorley had been trying to get him to fight the entire game, like, you can watch the montage on YouTube leading up to the incident, and Marty McSorley snaps and smacks the stick right across the side of, uh, Donald Brashear's head, you know, like, two handed, like, baseball job from behind, right?

From behind. Yeah. From behind, which is even worse. Yeah, he claims he was trying to hit him in the shoulder or the upper arm to piss him off and get him to turn around and fight. That sounds bad. I missed and hit him in the head. And then of course the real damage happened because that that stunned him.

And so his feet, it went out from under him and he fell hard to the ice and had a little whiplash action [00:30:00] there. And so he was, he was hurt pretty badly. And there was again, uh, there was law enforcement and, uh, the, the prosecutors got involved in that. Um, but those are extreme cases. I mean, and those are egregious.

Uh, there are not as many fights in hockey as there used to be, but. There's never any question that it's against the law. It's part of the sporting event. The thing with the trashers, though, is like they were in that gray area in between what the brochure incident or the more incident were and what your daily night in any hockey league might be.

You might get a fight or two, maybe not. I mean, you know, in the today's NHL, you might go 10 games with no fights. Your team might not have a single fight for 10 games and then maybe you have one. The trashers were having four and five fights a night, you know, so, you know, they're, they're a little out of control.

They're a little off the hook to use a two thousands [00:31:00] term there for you. There was that big blowout, um, in basketball that happened about the same time. And I believe there's a Netflix documentary on that as well, where, uh, one of the players. Went and, uh, got into a fight with a heckler and it turned into a whole big thing.

I think it was in the Knicks, I want to say, but that gets into that gray zone too, where what's your expectation? You know, the player versus a fan and then it turned into a whole, uh, a whole, basically the whole arena went into a brawl. Well, that happens in this documentary. I mean, Jimmy... The owner comes down after, uh, after Brad's leg gets snapped and it, uh, off a dirty, a dirty head is flew foot.

Um, and like the, it's just an utter bloody chaos. Like, uh, Jimmy actually comes down and I, he punches the ref in the face. Does he not? And he ends up. Yeah, I didn't see what he actually [00:32:00] did, but he got in trouble for. For threatening the ref or trying to get at the ref or whatever. And that is one thing that the leagues, none of the leagues will put up with is if you abuse of an official is, is, is never, is never accepted.

And, and they're pretty sticklers on that. Um, things like that have happened. I remember Ty Domi, uh, was in the penalty box in Philadelphia. And some very Philadelphia looking fan talking like a Guido looking guy, kind of a heavyset guy with dark hair looks just when I think of Philadelphia, that's the face.

I think of, you know, just a Northeastern looking guy. He's just given Domi the. Business he's ripping on him and chatting at him and then he starts leaning over, uh, the glass and pointing at him and, and Domi's chirping back at him. And then he squirts him with some water. I think 2 from his water bottle and the guy lunges for it and the glass pops off.

And this fan falls into the penalty box with [00:33:00] Tidomian, you know, you can say what you want about Tidomi skills with the puck, but he could throw hands and he had a cement head. And the last place you'd probably want to be with him is in the penalty box, wearing the opposing team's colors as a fan. And so, uh, and then Mike Milbury in Boston, he, he, when bunch of Boston.

Bruins went up into the stands because somebody was throwing keys or something or whatever. I don't remember what started that, but he took a guy's shoe and sort of beating him with his own shoe. So, I mean, it, it, it doesn't just, it hasn't only happened in Danbury. The, the, the difference is, is by 2005, a lot of that was 20 to.

30 years in the rear view mirror, and now all of a sudden it's, you know, it's right here in front of you and in your face again. Let's start to wrap up the story there. Let's wrap up the hockey story. What happens to the Danbury Trashers? They're only in existence for a very short amount [00:34:00] of time. Uh, Chris, do you want to wrap up their story?

Yeah, and it's weird because in the documentary you get this impression that it was all just one season, but the Trashers were actually around for two seasons, actually, and I believe both seasons they went to the Colonial Cup, um, and it ends with them losing to, uh, Kalamazoo is what they lost to in the documentary.

I don't know which year that was, though. Basically how it ends, like, uh... Like, which is, I mean, it's really remarkable type of story when you really think about it, because getting into League, I don't think people really gave them much of a chance, and just kind of the way they played the game, they're like, oh, we're gonna mix the wrestling and hockey together, and You know, here they are like going all the way to the cup.

And, uh, I think I looked up the series. They, it was a close series too. And I mean, they almost pulled it off, which is, you know, for expansion team first. And it's a little bit different than say the NHL. [00:35:00] But still it's their first two years and in the league and they go to the cup both years. Like that's pretty wild.

One of the things that's kind of interesting from a, I guess, a human behavior standpoint is. This team really endeared itself with the population, uh, population, or at least the fans that came, they were very, you know, the relationships appeared to be very genuine and, and some strong emotions and they love their team and, and the team seemed to love them back.

And, you know, they had that, uh, winger character, uh, that Wingfield, you know, talked a lot and he thought very highly of. Uh, Jim Galante and at the end of the documentary, when they surprised him by having Jimmy be there, he, he was in tears. He was trying not to cry really. So these really tight connections that are going on at the, on the hockey side of things.

And then you get to the mob side of things, right? Where, where the FBI lands, this massive [00:36:00] indictment, Jimmy Galante is faced with whatever it was a hundred and some counts. He could go to trial. He could try to win. But because of the hockey team, ironically, he's got some close dealings with his son because his son is so integral to the hockey team.

And you know, they were funneling money through there, like crazy, you know, they were doing all kinds of, he knows his son is vulnerable. If the FBI starts going that direction, they may have even said as much to them behind closed doors. And so what does James Galante decide to do? You know, I'm talking about this guy who's kind of a folk hero in the community, right?

A bad guy, but essentially to save his son. He, he pleads, takes a plea arrangement and goes to jail for like 10 years, goes to prison rather. Um, now you guys are doing a lot of these shows. I'm not, uh, I'm only on a couple of them, a few of them here, but you're talking about organized crime a lot. Omerta doesn't usually hold up like that.

Right. I mean, emeritus, a little bit of a myth [00:37:00] sometimes. I mean, there are guys who adhere to it, but it's not, it's not the staunchest of codes in terms of adherence. And yet, you know, he, he did, you know, he didn't, he didn't give up, you know, or, or, you know, he didn't give up Maddie the horse and he didn't, and he took a hit to save his kid.

So. You know, to echo what my wife said after we were done, it's hard not to admire that in a grudging way. Uh, I'm not doing the Tony Soprano thing and making him out to be a hero by any means. Um, but it is hard not to, to admire the way that the community. Rallied around this team, what the team gave the community, what the community gave the members of that team, and then the people behind that to see that that same expression was taking place within the family.

And here's a guy who's willing to do 10 years to keep his son from facing the prospect of any time at all. Um, I think that's a, that's a, that's an actually a very beautiful human story, even though there's a lot of [00:38:00] ugliness surrounding it.

Steve here again with a quick word from our sponsors. Well, that's exactly it, right? Is me and Steve are going back and forth about it. I go, I mean, it's such a Capta Emerita, right? Like he decided that, you know what? I chose this life and you know, I benefited from it and I'm going to not be a rat, right?

This is what I told my son his entire life. Be a standup guy and don't be a rat. How can I turn around and just be a rat myself? The other side of the coin though, is. The guy that he was really, I think, none of, I don't think they would have went after his kid or, I think they just started going after that because they were pressuring him because the guy that they really wanted was Matty, uh, the Horse Ionello.

He was the guy that the FBI really wanted. He knew, they knew that Jimmy knew a lot of stuff that he was up to. Did he give him anything? I mean, they give you the impression in the, in the documentary that [00:39:00] he didn't give him anything, that he just took his hit. He didn't give up anything at all. And he gave up, but at the same time, he gave up 10 years of his life that he could have been there with, and they don't get, they don't catch on, they don't catch on it.

They don't like, and the impression that you get in the documentary, it's like, yeah, they were father and son, but in a lot of ways they were like best friend. Um, and he gave that up 10 years, you know, and he even talks about it. When he comes back, you basically have to realize it's like. They're all living their lives and they did it.

They're doing it without me. And can you imagine being like a father and then, you know, you're seeing your kids there and it's, well, if I died tomorrow, like, they don't need me. Because that's basically what you have to come to the conclusion with, right? Because 10 years is a long time. Was it worth it? I don't know.

It's not for me to say. No, but, you know, here's an interesting thing, right? As a police officer, I'm [00:40:00] always happy when somebody gives me information, a criminal, right? You want an informant. You want a confession that makes your job far easier. It fills in facts. It strengthens your case. It's what you want.

And yet I will tell you that most cops that I know still have disdain for somebody who is a rat, a tattletale, whatever you want to call it. I mean, uh, I worked with a guy who grew up in Brooklyn and, and then he. Came out playing baseball, uh, in the Mariners system. And when he got out, he had met a local girl and decided to live in the Pacific Northwest and everything came on the job.

And, uh, he and I were talking one time and he absolutely spit the name, uh, of Sammy Gravano. He called him a rat, thought he was a piece of garbage, just, you know, and he's, you know, he's a patrol officer. I was, I'm his Sergeant. We're having coffee and just talking. And he has. Just absolutely no respect for the guy at all, even though he's doing [00:41:00] exactly what as an investigator, you would want him to do provide information so that you can bring down this, this, you know, criminal organization.

So it's a weird dynamic, uh, in that people just not just cops, but it's odd that cops are this way too, but people are generally that way. They respect somebody who doesn't rat. And even more than that, I think they respect somebody who says the, this is my code. And then they stick to that regardless of what that.

That's what this code is. Oh, for sure. I mean, there's like numerous examples, uh, just from the research that we've done. Like, Samuel Bolgrovano is a guy where it's just like, oh, my God, like, the fact that they even used him is a whole other story. But it's like, really? You're going to be the guy that rats after all the stuff that you did?

Like, Thank you. Like, give me a break here. I'm like, I'm reading another one, uh, on the Westies, this, another gentleman named Mickey Featherstone. He ends up becoming a state witness. And it's like, really, really, you benefited from all of them. And I loved, I loved Goodfellas and I thought it was a great [00:42:00] movie.

Absolutely loved it. I loved Ray Liotta, great actor. Just awesome film in a many, many ways, but come on. I mean, Henry Hill was a pretty bad guy. He maybe not as bad as Sammy the bull, but you know, I mean, he flipped pretty easily. Uh, and so I don't know. It's, it's an interesting dynamic. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that it doesn't surprise me after watching that and seeing how the fans and the team interacted that they would also feel a certain way about this guy.

In their midst, you know, this, this folk hero, uh, who they very well know is, is a little bent, you know, but it's part of the culture and it's a little more accepted than it might be in some other areas. And he said, I wasn't going to rat and he didn't rat and he did 10 years. He walked the walk. Uh, I, I bet, I bet he doesn't buy a beer anywhere in that town, you know, right or wrong.

I'm not condoning it. I'm just pointing it out. It's an interesting. It's an interesting thing. I [00:43:00] think there's something to that. I would imagine, you know, on your side of the table, looking at somebody who's snitching or ratting or squealing or whatever the word you want to use that you always have to have in the back of the mind.

Are they really a reliable narrator to the story? Or are they painting a picture to make themselves look better or to make the, even if maybe they're dead to rights on something that they've done wrong. And that they're making the person who they're selling out look a lot worse than they may even actually be.

Yeah. You always want to confirm independently the facts that they tell you, if you can, what, what often what informers will do for you is, is kind of point the direction and give you, you know, There's a thousand boxes in this room and they tell you which one to look in. You know, I mean, it's, uh, you know, it's that kind of an assistance in your investigation.

But yeah, I mean, it's a weird thing. I, I, I was [00:44:00] very grateful for, for people who told the truth and snitched people off and they helped my cases. They helped me as a patrol officer. They, they, but deep inside, I had a little bit of contempt for him too. It's like, it's almost like they're a traitor. It's like you chose your team.

You chose your team and now you're a traitor. It's like a, like a, somebody who defects from, from, from Russia. I don't, Hey, great. Thanks for the secrets, but I don't really admire you. You were born there and that's your country. And you just betrayed that your country, you know what I mean? It kind of feels like that with these mob informers too.

And so, you know, 10 years is a long time, but he took it standing up, you know, and, and in a way, you just kind of have to grudgingly admire that just a little bit. I think the other thing with Jimmy is I know there was some violence and there was the setting of the trucks on fire, but a lot of the stuff that he eventually went down for two is a lot of complicated financial crimes and stuff like that.

I think in a lot of ways. [00:45:00] People maybe don't overlook it, but they don't really understand it. Or they don't see that, oh, well, that's not so bad. He didn't break anybody's kneecaps in the streets. And we like that he puts on a good hockey game. So we're there, people are able to mentally overlook a lot of things.

A little bit of willful blindness there probably too, because if you're, if you're listed as a close associate of Maddie, the horse, you're probably, you're probably doing a few things that most people would, uh, uh, would change their minds about what a good guy you are. If they knew about it for sure. And that's why guys like that go and give Christmas gifts and I mean, a lot of guys like that probably would gave money to the, um, you know, the police boosters club and like, uh, you know, made themselves look like big men, you know, in town.

Sponsored cub scouts, you know, this mile on the freeway is sponsored by, you know, galante waste management. I'm sure he did [00:46:00] all that kind of stuff. I mean, hell's angels have a choice for tots drive or whatever it is. I mean, it's a, it's a very old tactic, but it works. That's why it's old because it keeps getting used because it's effective.

Jimmy does eventually go to jail the and that's pretty much it. He comes back 10 years later. A. J. Has moved on. Everybody's moved on and it's kind of a happy ish ending in a way. Yeah, like we see like they have like a reunion at a bar and they're reminiscing about the trashers. Uh, I listened to some interviews with A.

1. And for a really long time after like the trashers fold in and dad went to jail, he just Didn't want anything to do with hockey. Didn't want, didn't even watch the NHL. Nothing. He was just, I guess he associated with all of that went down really with his dad going to jail. And I think it's only until recently that he started watching some hockey again.

Um, And like obviously like they had that reunion and yeah, it's like a happy ending. It's like, you know, like we, it was a short time, but like, [00:47:00] look at all the memories that they created with the players and the friendships and within the community. I mean, we're talking, we're still talking about them now and how, how many years ago was this?

The team was only around for two years, right, in a, you know, kind of lower end league in terms of professional hockey, and it's really incredible what they did. You know, one thing they didn't talk about that, that I noticed that was glaringly absent was what Jimmy's doing now. You know, they talked about AJ, he's got a job and then he's doing this boxing thing and you know, and he's that, that was pretty clear, but you know, he declined to answer a couple of questions directly on advice of counsel, probably wisely, but they didn't talk about what he's doing now, you know, is he back in the business?

Is he doing something else? What is he, is his wife supporting him? What, what's happening? I don't know if you know the answer to that, Chris, I have no idea, but I found it, uh, I found the absence of, Some kind of a, uh, because [00:48:00] that's kind of the kind of thing you include at the end of the story. And the date and while the story, it's like, you know, I mean, you see these documents are all the time where it'll freeze frame and then it'll print across the bottom, you know, James Galante is now working as a consultant for the FBI or something like this.

Right. But they don't do that with him. And I got to tell you, that actually made me a little suspicious. That maybe he's drifted back into what got him in trouble in the 1st place, and there's still stuff there. But do you know, uh, Christie, have you read anything or anything? I don't know. Uh, off the I know.

I don't know exactly what he's doing now. I know for sure. It has nothing to do with trash because I know the plea that he took he. Said that he would never get involved in the trash business again, right? So, I mean, well, you, you both know, there's lots of industries where he could get involved in, though, that are that are absolutely adjacent industries.

I know we had a significant amount of money still left after he got out of prison. I think it was, they couldn't, they couldn't take it off because he was able to still, they [00:49:00] couldn't take it. Everything. So he still had like 10 million. I mean, he, maybe he's just living it off that. Yeah. And all being like, you know what, I did my time and I get 10 million, right?

I could live like this for the rest of my life. Just, yeah, you, I don't know how much interest that bears every year, but I got to thank you. Live on a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. That's going to last you. Yeah, I'm sure you can figure out a way.

I just thought it was interesting they didn't, they didn't, they didn't point in any direction whatsoever. And that, that omission was a little glaring, but maybe I'm making more out of it than it is. That is interesting though, because if he was just cruising, I think people would, they would say that, well, Jimmy's just.

Living his retirement now that trying to men fences after being in the can for 10 years, but they didn't say you're right. They didn't say that or he's a motivational speaker for people trying to recover from battle criminal life or whatever it is, if it were positive, I would think they would highlight it.

[00:50:00] But again, I mean, that's. You get to have a suspicious nature when you spend some time in law enforcement. So, you know, suspicion is, is fine. Uh, but, but I, you know, you got to seek out whether your suspicion is accurate or not. And I do not know. So I freely admit that it's just a suspicion that I would have to follow up on.

I was kind of hoping Chris knew for sure.

No, it's not a bad suspicion because he's a, you know, he's a career criminal. So he's probably, I don't know if I had to take a guess. He's probably, I don't think he's doing. He's probably, I. Probably not doing anything like he was doing before, but I'm pretty sure he, you know, he's probably doing some illegal.

I mean, I don't think, I don't think he's ever going to be stopped being one, right? That's, that's what he is. That's what he did in his whole life. It's a hard habit to break. I mean, look at, I mean, yeah, well, Henry Hill gets sent out onto the west coast and he starts, uh, you know, a stolen property ring or something [00:51:00] like that and almost got kicked out of the witness protection program.

And I think they sent it up to Seattle and I think he did get kicked out after a second time. I mean, so, you know. You know, more habitual creatures and crime can be a habit. Well, I have to say I enjoyed the documentary. I enjoyed the hockey clips, both the goals and the scraps and the, and the, the people and the fans and the interaction and all those dynamics.

I thought it was fascinating. I'm glad you suggested it, Chris. And we really had an interesting confluence of a lot of different topics that came together. And I'm very happy that you were able to join Mustache Chris and I, Frank, and I very much hope that you'll come back for more episodes. I'd be thrilled to.

Yeah, it'd be awesome. You know, it's like I suggest everybody watch this documentary. It's you don't have to be a hockey fan or even organized crime fan because it's just it really is just a really crazy story. It helps if you're fans of both and then you'll really enjoy it. But just sit [00:52:00] back and watch it because it's, uh, it's fascinating.

Netflix, in my opinion. It's a well made documentary too. It's, it's, it's high production value. If you like what you hear, you like episodes like this, definitely send us some feedback, send us back some feedback on maybe some episodes you'd like to hear Frank talk about in particular, um, when the three of us get together.

But if you like what you hear for sure, tell your friends about it so that you can become friends of ours. Forget about it. Forget about it.

You've been listening to Organized Crime and Punishment, a History and Crime podcast. To learn more about what you heard today, find links to social media and how to support the show. Go to our website, A to z history page.com. Become a friend of ours by sending us an email to crime at a to z history page dot com All of this and [00:53:00] more can be found in the show notes.

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