Beneath the Ice: The Secrets of Richard Kuklinski Revealed

Organized Crime and Punishment

Title: Beneath the Ice: The Secrets of Richard Kuklinski Revealed

Original Publication Date: 8/16/2023

Transcript URL: https://share.descript.com/view/gQGAxbZu3M2

Description: In this chilling episode of Organized Crime and Punishment, we delve into the life and career of Richard Kuklinski, famously known as "The Iceman." Our hosts explore the chilling details of Kuklinski’s journey from a seemingly ordinary family man to a ruthless contract killer responsible for over 100 murders. Discover the method behind his madness as we analyze his notorious use of freezing techniques to confound forensic investigations. Join us as we uncover the sinister secrets of this enigmatic figure and shed light on the cat-and-mouse game he played with law enforcement. Tune in to this gripping episode and explore the dark world of one of history's most notorious hitmen. #TrueCrimePodcast #OrganizedCrimeChronicles #TheIcemanCometh #ColdBloodedKiller #MurderMystery #CrimeWorldRevealed #CriminalMastermind #UnmaskingTheIceman #ForensicInvestigation #LawEnforcementPursuit

You can learn more about Organized Crime and Punishment and subscribe at all these great places:

https://atozhistorypage.start.page

email: [e-mail]

www.organizedcrimeandpunishment.com

Parthenon Podcast Network Home:

parthenonpodcast.com

On Social Media:

https://www.youtube.com/@atozhistory

https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypage

https://facebook.com/atozhistorypage

https://twitter.com/atozhistorypage

https://www.instagram.com/atozhistorypage/

Music Provided by:

Music from "5/8 Socket" by Rico's Gruv

Used by permission.

© 2021 All Rights Reserved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=210vQJ4-Ns0

https://open.spotify.com/album/32EOkwDG1YdZwfm8pFOzUu

Begin Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to Organized Crime and Punishment, the best spot in town to hang out and talk about history and crime, with your hosts, Steve and Mustache Chris.

The whole story of Richard Kuklinski, the Iceman, meeting Barbara is really interesting because everything to me screamed that Barbara should have stayed a million miles away. And it was really, she, this is my impression. I got of it. She got caught up in his gravity. He's like, he was like a black hole.

And once she got too close to him, there was no escaping him. Yeah. Like he was working [00:01:00] at, I believe it was a, it was like a shipping and receiving thing. And. At first, he just kind of bumped into Barbara and they talked for a little bit and the manager, the boss told Richard, you got to stay away from her.

Don't you talk to her ever again? And Richard wasn't even thinking about her romantically in that sense. But as soon as the boss is like, you couldn't, you can't have her. That was like, okay, Richard, like Richard's like, I got to have her and pretty much almost kind of starts like stalking her and they start dating a little bit and then.

At one point, Barbara's family, because they're picking up kind of weird vibes from him, they hire a private investigator to kind of look into Richard and they start, you know, seeing things that, uh, not the murder, but just a bunch of other like low end crimes and stuff that he'd been doing and just words on the streets.

And at one point, like Barbara steps back, but she's, she says to herself, like, well, that's in the past. He's not doing that anymore. And then. You know, this whole [00:02:00] time he's still married to his first wife, which is another wild thing. And that's like a big thing in the, uh, in the confessions of a hitman book where people are really focused on her family's really focused on like, well, you got to get a divorce.

You got to get a divorce. And Richard kind of struggles, like to get the money to get the divorce. But we talked about this earlier. He has like low impulse control with that. Eventually he ends up getting her pregnant and. She starts seeing the real Richard, and she doesn't like what she sees, and she runs away, I believe, to live with her father in Florida, and he goes and talks to her mother, and her mother's like, well, I'll tell you where she is, but you gotta show, you gotta prove to me that you got the divorce, he ends up getting the divorce, and she shows him, she tells him, um, um, um, Where Barbara is, and he finds her and they end up getting married because I guess it's the right thing to do in that time.

And, um, it's probably the worst. Just while Barbara will tell you it was the worst [00:03:00] decision she ever made in her life that and the fact that once he was in, he. There was just no leaving and Barbara knew it that there was no leaving him that either he went to jail somehow, or somebody was going to die her mom, her dad, her, and how many times did he cause her to miscarry?

I think it was three times through beating her or... Yeah, it was like three times and like, even before they got married, he was like poking her with knives and like threatening her entire, like, I shouldn't laugh, but I mean, it is like, it's insane. Um, and she like. She told her mother this and her mother's like, Oh, no, so this is where she is in Florida.

And, you know, I got like, and during their relationship, um, because like Richard refused to like do any contraceptive or what have you, they would, she would get pregnant all the [00:04:00] time. And like the first three times that she was pregnant, as you mentioned the, she had miscarriages because of Richard's insane temper.

Yeah. That's I. I've really tried to think of what could Barbara have done to get away from him. And then you think in so many cases with the, with the abused wives and there's gotta be something, but in a lot of cases, especially I think in this most extreme case, There was nothing she could do period. No, nothing she could do.

Well, yeah, because I mean, you can get in this particular case, he, he would have, he would have killed her entire family. Yeah. You know, she could have gone, you know, say it wasn't nowadays with, you know, there's social services for the, for, uh, abused women and all sorts of things. Even if that was available to her, he was going to kill her entire family and probably her.

I, and at that time she [00:05:00] was young, she might've even still, Barbara still may have been in her teens at that point or early twenties. She had zero choices. I mean, you hate to say that, but she really ditched. There was zero she could do to stay away from Richard, even her uncle. Um, Who was, I think, a police officer and somewhere in New Jersey, he went and talked with Richard and Richard, Richard terrified him and made him worried that he was going to kill him and he was a cop.

And this is the one that we haven't mentioned this yet, but like Richard Kuklinski was literally a monster, like in terms of like the stuff he did, but like he was a monster physically. He was like six, five, 300 pounds. Yeah. Just built like, like, uh, strong as a strong man. And I mentioned this to you earlier.

Like I was at the gym earlier in the week and I saw a guy and I'm like, Oh, he kind of reminded me of Richard just because we were talking [00:06:00] about it. And I, like, I'm not a small guy at all. Like I'm, you know, like I'm short, but I'm pretty thick, right. And well built. And I saw this guy and he was like six, five, he must've been like two, like three 30 and there's nothing I could have done if you really wanted to do something.

He was just a freak of nature. And yeah, that's just something like that. We need to, we didn't really mention at the beginning of the show is like, like, not only is he insane, but he's also like a monster physically. He's like the incredible Hulk. Yeah. I mean, they have. Stories where he literally ripped the door off of a car, ripped the door off of the hinges, and I believe it.

Oh yeah, because it is, it is one, it is possible to do it, you know, and he's picking up like, uh, I think it was like, at one point it was like a marble table they just bought, and he throws it out the window, and Barbara... Mentions like it took like four guys to just get [00:07:00] that up the stairs and Richard just picked it up himself and just threw it out the window just because he was angry.

And you think about it, somebody who is that strong just naturally and then when somebody's enraged and pumped full of adrenaline and they're even, you know, that magnifies their strength like that. He is. Dangerous of a person with the, you know, absolute as short of a fused temper as you can possibly get, and they're a physically a monster like, I mean, this guy was as he was a bad dude.

Oh, yeah, you know, and that was and we mean, you were talking about it earlier. This is what kind of like separates Richard from. Some of these other type of serial killers were like Richard was we'll get into it like his hitman like a career and shortly is he was like, you know, he's doing hits against, you know, other tough guys and Richard was like a legitimately like tough guy.

And physically strong and where, like a [00:08:00] lot of these other guys, they're kind of, I don't know, they're kind of pathetic and they're weakly and they prey on, you know, women and like the elderly, like in terms of like Richard Ramirez, and they weren't like really fighting and taking on guys that were maybe could have gave them a chance.

Steve here again. We are a member of the Parthenon Podcast Network, featuring great shows like Josh Coen's. Eyewitness history and many other great shows. Go to Parthenon podcast to learn more. And now here's a quick word from our sponsors

that leads us really into this mid part of his life where Richard, he's established. Eventually, Barbara and Richard have three children, two girls, Marck Chris, and then a boy Duane. Richard's absolutely over the moon over his [00:09:00] first, his eldest daughter, Merrick, eh, with his daughter, Chris, and he has a pretty cold relationship with his son.

So that's his family life. They move into a nice suburb in New Jersey. But really, Richard's career this whole time... It's mostly just small time rackets that he's into, but what he claims is that he's making his money as a hitman and as an enforcer, uh, either killing people or collecting money for the mafia.

People like Nino Gaggi, uh, who's somebody who's as a name, keep that name in mind because Nino Gaggi is a, uh, capo in the Gambino family and his name will come up as we talk about Roy DeMeo and Richard, but I get the feeling that. It's almost, you have to believe that Richard was [00:10:00] probably just making his money through the pornography at this point, and maybe as an enforcer for the mafia, but it just seems to me like there's not a ton of independent evidence to support this being a hitman.

No, there's not, and I mean, he claims that he got into contact with Ro Well, back it up a little bit. He claims that he was doing hits for the Devacanto. How do you pronounce that? The, the Jersey family. It's the, um, is it the Devacanti family? They were the ones who the Sopranos was based on and they were the big family of New Jersey.

Oh, yeah, he claims that he was doing hits for that family and I'm trying to remember. I can't remember the life of me. I can't remember the guy's name that he was doing the hits for and he did that for a bit. And then he stopped doing that. And that at the point that we're talking about right now. He's doing his [00:11:00] pornography, peddling stuff, and this is kind of where he claims he gets into contact with Roy DeMaio, because Roy DeMaio was basically the one funding all of this, and I know Roy takes a shine to him, and kind of sees this is what Richard claims, and kind of sees that Richard, they're like kindred spirits, and hires, hires him for special jobs that, um, You know, he can't really get involved in or, you know, people within his crew really can't be taught, can't, uh, getting, uh, can't get involved in.

So I don't know. People claim that this seems like this is a stretch that Roy DeMille would have a guy like this because, you know, when we get into Roy DeMille, he didn't mind getting his hands dirty himself. Um, You know hundreds of times so I mean but this is like a big part of Richard's story that he claims happened it wasn't just like he was just he was like a freelance guy too so he was like doing work for all the for all the different families right because he was polish so [00:12:00] he could never get made and he was always kind of like kept on the outside he was like a distant associate I somewhat believe that this was the case um just because If you look at something like, say, like Murder, Inc.,

one of the reasons they hired a lot of Jewish and Irish guys, and there were Italians in it, but they hired a lot of Jewish and Irish guys, was because it gave them a little bit of distance from the inner, the inner, uh, Italian circle of the five families, and I mean, I don't find it's a stretch that they would pay them a fair amount of money to do some of the hits that um, They talk about in the book, a lot of these hits were like kind of personal jobs to, you know, so and so, uh, broke my cousin's heart.

And, uh, so I heard that this guy, you know, uh, did some things to his sister and things of that nature and like collecting debt. It depends. Maybe you just don't have the time and you hire it out to make sure that it gets done. Yeah, it, um, it's the DeCavalcanti family of New [00:13:00] Jersey. So we were pretty close with the name.

And it doesn't, it's not super important, but, um, I think the, the only, the, probably the most important fact is that he, the, if we believe Richard, that was his in to the mafia. The, the boss of the De Conti really liked him and Richard says he did a lot of work for him and that got that guy Richard's name in with these other families in, in New York City proper.

Some of the other things that, I think in the Carlo book, and I think a lot of this is based on Richard's interviews is that he makes himself out like he's an international hitman, like, um, almost like the movie assassins or that video game. I can't think of the video game. Is it called the hitman where the guy's bald?

Yeah. Yeah, I know who you're talk Yeah, I know what you're talking about. It just, it's, it's kind of insane. Like, there's one where he [00:14:00] supposedly went to Rio de Janeiro to, um, initially work out a drug deal with, uh, these, uh, Brazilian, uh, gang members who were, uh, in. competition with the Colombian drug lords, but then eventually Richard kills them.

And the, so the story is so preposterous. It's either so preposterous it's true, or it's just total garbage. I don't think there's any gray in there. I think in particular, like his international travels, like there's like a whole section in the Carlo book. Where I don't he's doing like the Nigerian money scheme and he's going to like Zurich and he's doing these like international like drug deals with the Colombians and Brazilians.

I, me personally, I don't, I don't, I think he's just kind of telling fibs about that, but I do think I do believe that he did was. He did, did hits [00:15:00] for the mob and I do believe that he had more than just a kind of a passing relationship with Roy DeMille. Like, I think Roy DeMille knew who he was and either hired him to do work or told other people to hire this guy to get certain things done if you wanted to, you want it done correctly and you would be able to keep a certain amount of distance away, uh, distance between yourself and the, the crime.

Um, being committed. I mean, and at the same time, Roy would never, you never would have been really part of the DeMayo crew anyways. I mean, he, him being Polish and, uh, various other reasons. I mean, that's not necessarily, I mean, Lansky was Jewish and we'll get him when we get into good fellas, uh, Robert De Niro's character was Irish.

Um, but you know, Polish, Polish seems. I don't know like the jews and irish had always been doing work with the italian mob. Anyways, the polish thing was I don't know. Probably what I don't think I don't think it's a stretch to [00:16:00] think that that that was like something else Entirely and they really kept him to the outside and only used him for special hits And I mean, and he also claims like he killed like hoffa and I don't know I find that hard to believe and he was like part of the paul castellano hit but then he gets like certain details wrong about the about how that hit actually went down.

I mean, I mean, it's possible that he was part of those hits. Um, but I don't think, I don't think he had anything to do with that. I don't know. Maybe do you have a different opinion? I think it's, I really, my strong sense is that he was always peripheral to the, to the real, the real mafia that he was running his own scams and his own operation in New Jersey.

Enough to make money and he would supplement his income with things that were going on through New York City. But I, and I think he probably did have some [00:17:00] connection with, uh, Roy DeMeo's crew. What did they call them? The Gemini. We'll get into that. At a different point, but that with his with Roy DeMaio, but I just don't think he was ever central to any of it that he was always just a useful pair of hands that for certain jobs as far as the Zurich thing, I think maybe he could have been involved in some small time early.

Money, wire fraud type deals, but I do not think that Richard was going to Zurich acting like he was some sort of, um, international businessman and it's just, it couldn't be, could you picture somebody, but if you go and listen to the Iceman tapes, he has the. Thickest Jersey, North Jersey, working class accent.

He's six foot five, three hundred pounds. He's just not passing himself off [00:18:00] as a high end businessman in Zurich. I don't buy it. Maybe it's true, but I think that maybe he was involved in some sort of early 80s.

Wirefraud type scam is just one of as many ways to earn. Yeah, that's, you know, that's very possible. And like you pointed out, like, he was always kind of on the periphery, like, during this whole time, he's doing, like, B& Es and other, like, he's constantly doing, like, different scams, um, you know, and. I'm sure it was like pornography distribution.

He probably did travel around the United States. It would make sense. I mean, LA, like going to places like LA and like some other bigger cities. But, um, I mean, like, I don't know, it seems going to, I like the image of him going to like. Being like this high, like, financial, like, scammer guy with that thick Jersey accent going to, like, Switzerland and, like, just talking to these people.

It's just, it is a funny image. Yeah, and, and then [00:19:00] going over to Zurich and I think he claims to have killed at least two people in Zurich and, like, to see that and to think of that image, it's so crazy. It's like a, Like you said, like a Bond villain or something, so that comic. Yeah, it's, it's so crazy. So then that really leads us into, um, his relationship with another person, this Robert Prongay, who was called Mr.

Softy. He was the, um. He's the one who supposedly taught Richard to freeze the bodies and he, uh, Robert Pongre, if I'm not mistaken, he was a something with the army. I heard a couple of different things. He had some sort of military service. He could have been as much as a, um, a Navy, not a Navy SEAL, a Green Beret or something, special forces.

But then I thought I read somewhere else that he may have been in the Air Force, which is not known generally for its. [00:20:00] Assassin style killing. But anyways, the, they really laid Robert set Robert Prongay out as he sort of a, um, mentor assassin for Richard that brings them up to the next level. Yeah, it's, it's really, yeah, this is to me as one of the more kind of thing, one of the, one of the aspects of Richard's story really hinges like is if Robert Prongay is real.

Then it lends a lot more credence to some of the other stuff that he says. And well, we know that Robert Prongate was a real guy and, um, because there is a newspaper article about a guy that was, you know, pretty much sounded like he was insane and was shot and killed like at an ice cream truck. Um, Yeah, so Richard bumps into Robert.

I guess they were doing a job, um, two separate jobs at the same hotel or something like that. And they bump into each other at the bathroom. This is how [00:21:00] Richard describes it. And they just kind of stare each other down because they both kind of realize that they're the same person where they're doing the same thing.

And they just kind of strike up a relationship, almost kind of like a friendship where they're You know, they're like showing each other just different ways of how they get their jobs done. And Richard had been fooling around with poison, um, like stuff like cyanide, just because it's really quick and it's efficient.

Apparently, Robert Prong had created this cyanide spray and. Various other ways of having to use it, uh, using it and, um, using like explosives, I guess that was from his military background. And, but the thing that makes Robert Prange really stand out is he would drive around in an ice cream truck and with the full like regalia and everything that, and he would use this ice cream truck for surveillance.

And I mean, it is kind of a brilliant idea because nobody would think that they're being surveilled by. You know, a good dude and an ice cream truck serving kids ice cream. Cause he would actually, he would [00:22:00] serve kids ice cream too. And they seem to strike up kind of a, a pretty good friendship. And it's the way Richard describes it is this kind of sounds like the only friend that he ever really kind of had.

You know, somebody that he, they both really kind of understood each other because they were essentially the same person in a lot of ways. And if you believe Richard's story, it's that Robert Prange said he wanted to have Richard kill his own family for some reason. And I think there was a, it was kind of a convoluted reason of somebody who was.

Pretty insane, and Robert claimed that he, Robert Prangay claimed that he was going to poison a reservoir that it would, uh, to kill one person, but the, an entire community fed off of this reservoir that it would have killed an entire town or something, supposedly, I mean, I don't know, and then Rob, [00:23:00] so I think that, I don't know if Richard, it, I think he did wind up getting convicted for Robert Prongay's murder after he had been in jail.

He copped to it for, um, something else. I think he copped to it so that he, uh, he, he wouldn't get the death penalty or something. And it was pretty, I mean, but I think that Richard probably killed him, but I don't think it was necessarily that important that he did kill him. No, but it's, it. The thing is, it's like we, we have that one newspaper article and I mean, it checks out, like apparently he was threatening to kill his family and he was like an arsonist and like, was pretty insane person.

And this kind of checks out with what Richard is saying. And I mean, it kind of lends a little bit to some of the other stuff he's saying, or like, I, I do think that this Robert Prong a character did exist and [00:24:00] was somebody like Richard that did, you know, hits for the mob and did hits for various people and used his military training background and, uh, to you.

To his advantage and was, you know, like a serial killer, like Richard was. And the, the rice and thing is interesting. You mentioned that. Cause he, his logic was like, well, if I just poison this whole reservoir, then they can't like pin, they can't say like, Oh, it was just directed at the two people that I was trying to kill.

So they would just have no idea. It's so smart. I guess it's so stupid. It's, it's so smart that it's stupid. Do you know, do you understand what I'm saying? Like, like, I understand his logic. But it's interesting that like even Richard was looking at Robert and going, yeah, this guy's insane. So how insane do you have to be for Richard to go if this is too much?

Steve here again with a quick word from our sponsors. [00:25:00] Before we go to the end of his career. And, and how he's eventually caught. Let's quickly talk about the, the Jimmy Hoffa murder, because that hit, that's a, that's a key one there that I think we need to talk about. Nobody knows who killed Jimmy Hoffa and a whole bunch of people have claimed to have done it.

Uh, most recently, probably the two that really the most famous one is that Frank Sheerman, who was, um, the wrote, I think it was a. His biography was called, and we'll, we'll probably talk about this later, was called So I Hear You Paint Houses, which was turned into the Irishman movie. He claims that he's the one who actually was the one who killed Hoffa, and then they had his body incinerated, and that was pretty much it.

Richard Kuklinski says that he was a part of a hit team, and some of the details line up, actually, with what Sheeran says, that they [00:26:00] lured him to this house. Hoffa to this house, but in, um, Kuklinski's, they, rendering of the story, they load Jimmy Hoffa's body into a car, drive him back to Jersey. They bury him somewhere and then they dig him up and then they put him in the trunk of a car, which is compacted.

And then it was sold off as scrap. So Hoffa was. Incinerated when they melted down the car. Presumably. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Like, it's possible, but everything that I've read about people saying, like, it was, you know, it was Richard there when hopper was scale. I don't know. They seem they seem to think it's ridiculous, but.

I mean, I mean, if he's telling the truth about Robert Prongay, maybe he knows a thing or two about this, right? Like, that's, that's, that to me is what's so fascinating about this story is you're reading it and it's like, well, where does the truth start and where does the truth end? And like, like, is he telling the truth here?

Is he not telling the truth here? [00:27:00] It's, um, I don't know. What's your opinion on his? Connection with Hoppa, because I think you had a slightly different take on it. I think it's not entirely impossible. There, there were some things that seem believable on the story that maybe as, especially as opposed to Frank Sheernan, that Frank Sheernan was really good friends with Hoppa.

And Frank Sheernan, Will's also really good friends with Russell Bufalino, so maybe he would do the hit. But if, if we believe everything, that's what we have to do, is if we believe everything that, uh, Richard said about him being a hitman, then he would be a really good person to do it. If he's full of it, then he's really, he's completely full of it.

Um, and so, or maybe Frank and, sorry, and then maybe Frank and Richard. Kind of did it together and like not no, I assume they probably had no idea who [00:28:00] they, each other were, but you used Frank to, you know, cause Frank and Jimmy were best friends to get them in the house. Cause Jimmy didn't think that Frank would, you know, backstab them.

And, you know, then the rest is history now. Eventually, Richard is caught in the mid 80s by a task force, uh, federal and New Jersey state law enforcement. And I kind of wonder what were your thoughts about this? It's a, it's a pretty complicated story of, um, undercover officer who went by the name of Dominic Provenzano.

He was an ATF agent who was in deep cover and Technically speaking, it, this had nothing to do with his job as an ATF. He was loaned out to New Jersey because he was such deep cover inside of the mafia. It's just so weird to me that the murders that Richard did, that he winds up eventually getting [00:29:00] convicted of, they had very little evidence.

That he did it. There was, I think, for one, there was only a body of all the murders that he was eventually convicted of the four or five of them. There was really only one that could definitively be attached to Richard. Yeah, I mean, it's. I just, well, and you mentioned Dominic Provenzano, I think, so, in the book, he talks about how he wears this wig, and it just seems to really bother him, and he just keeps on talking about this guy wearing, wearing this bad wig, um.

It is interesting that they only got him for, I mean, I think he was charged with the five and that there was only the one 100% for sure, but they do have them on tape talking about using poison. Um, this is, I mean, at the, I don't know, there's different theories about why Richard was being so like, kind of sloppy near the end.

And I, [00:30:00] I, I tend to think that maybe he was just getting tired of it and he just kind of wanted to just have to be over with. But there's also the theory that like, he was just talking so openly because who cares? It didn't matter. He was going to kill Dominic anyways. That was, that's what he was going to do.

He was going to kill Dominic and the, I believe he made up this Jewish kid that was.

Um, and this is why he needed Richard to, he needed Richard to kill this Jewish kid and he was going to get them the cyanide. And, and it's a, it is funny because like Dominic's like, oh, it's got to get done right now. And Richard said, well, it takes a couple of days to make the spray. And he's like, no, we're We'll put it in egg salad sandwiches.

And Dominic provisional comes up this whole story about like how this Jewish kid likes loves egg salad sandwiches. If you put an egg salad sandwich in front of him, he's going to eat it. And like, right now I just, that was just, uh, just something that he comes up with on the fly just to make sure he gets it, [00:31:00] um, yeah, it is interesting.

And I like it, it is interesting how sloppy Richard kind of gets near the end where he's just kind of openly talking about killing people and using different poisons. I think that in all, I, I never completely understood why they were so hot to get Richard. I don't understand where the pressure was coming from because he really criminal wise, if Dominic Provenzano, uh, I can't remember his, uh, his real name, but that was his undercover name.

If he was so deep into the mafia, It seems like there's a lot bigger fish to fry than Richard, because I think they must have honestly believed that he was the serial killer hitman that he was. I mean, that could be a piece of evidence to say that he really was the person that he claimed to be. That's what I personally, that's what I tend to think.

[00:32:00] Um. Because it is kind of weird that they would be such this hoopla about even at the time like this was before Richard talked about anything if you can go back and look at the news stories It was like a big deal when they got richard glinsky. Um, this mafia hitman So like that the story about him being a mafia hitman goes Way goes way before he started doing the HBO before he did the HBO documentaries, um, which is why I find it hard to like people say that he's just like making it all up.

Like, I find that I don't know. I think that's that's not believable at all. I do do. I think he made up some stuff. Yeah, but he was definitely. I think he was definitely a hit man for the mob, and he definitely killed a lot of people.

You've been listening to Organized Crime and Punishment, a history and crime podcast. To learn more about what you heard today, find links to social media, and how to support the show, go [00:33:00] to our website, AtoZHistoryPage. com. Become a friend of ours by sending us an email to crime at AtoZHistoryPage. com.

All of this and more can be found in the show notes. We'll see yous next time on Organized Crime and Punishment. Forget about it.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.