Stakeholder Diversity in Standards Development with Megan Hayes, Senior Technical Director, NEMA

Word to the W.I.S.E. #whystandardsmatter

You can read the full transcript of the interview with Megan Hayes here:

Host: Megan Hayes, thank you so much for joining us in this Word to the Wise conversation.

[00:01:09] Megan Hayes: I would just like to thank UL for the opportunity and I'm excited to provide my perspective on diversity and inclusion in standards

[00:01:17] Host: . What an incredibly rich experience of 22 years in standards. Megan, tell us a bit more about the industries you worked in and the work you do now at NEMA.

[00:01:28] Megan Hayes: So, I started my career a long time ago in telecommunications at the Alliance for Telecommunications Industry Solutions. After about four years there, I moved to the Consumer Electronics Association, which is now the Consumer Technology Association where I worked in wireless power and product safety. I then came to NEMA and I worked in lighting and medical imaging. I spent about a year and a half at the Plastics Industry Association, which was really interesting as they're dealing with all kinds of sustainability issues. And about four years ago, I came back to NEMA as their Senior Technical Director, where I'm responsible for their overall technical program from the standards that NEMA develops to the organizations that we participate in, like UL and NFPA and the IEC. It's a lot on my plate, but I have the most amazing team to support me in moving the electro technical industry forward.

[00:02:28] Host: And looking back at your career path, when did it become critical to you personally to have more diverse opinion and decision making on standards development bodies? And how did that come about?

[00:02:40] Megan Hayes: I'm not sure if there's an exact specific moment, and I'll bet that most of my cohort would agree that it's, it's almost a spectrum of understanding the importance of stakeholder diversity. But as I thought about. You know how my thinking has evolved over time. There are a few conversations and , events that have happened that have really helped to shape my thinking. One is discussions with the American National Standards Institute and the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission about the critical importance of the consumer perspective in developing standards for product safety. Another is the focus on ESG that so many of our member companies have and, and how that's shaped thinking for trade associations like NEMA. The IEC governance and reorganization work that has led to the diversity advisory committee. And then finally, and I think one that we're all thinking about is the United Nations Sustainability Goals, specifically goal number five about, gender equality. And that's really helped over time to ensure that so many people in standards are now thinking, "Do we have the right people at the table to make the most effective standards that we can?"

[00:04:00] Host: And as chair of IEC's Diversity Advisory Committee, what are your key focus areas?

[00:04:07] Megan Hayes: So, before the Diversity Advisory Committee, there was a task force of the IEC, council board, then now just the IEC board and that diversity task force did an amazing job in setting the diversity advisory committee up for success. And they identified three key focus areas for diversity within the IEC and those are gender diversity, regional diversity, and stakeholder diversity. And you know, if you think about it for an organization as large and diverse as the IEC, where the members are countries and not companies, those three factors are really the correct factors for the IEC to be focused on.

[00:04:52] Host: And apart from considering stakeholder diversity and gender, how can standards bodies themselves address the question of greater representation of diverse voices on their own technical panels and boards?

[00:05:04] Megan Hayes: I think that the first step for any standards development organization is to really think about who are the right people to have at the table. , The IEC Diversity Task Force did a great job focusing the IEC on those three factors, but those aren't gonna be the correct ones for all standards development organizations. And once an SDO has thought about, you know, what are the right diversity factors, then it's key to create a program that really ensures that the SDO is trying to engage with, diverse stakeholders and the people that we, that really need to be at the table. Sometimes it's really difficult, you know, I mentioned conversations with ANSI and the US CPSC on, on consumer participation. It's hard to get consumers at the standards table, but it's not impossible. And, you know, reach out to your networks and your colleagues and, and folks at other SDOs and, and talk about to them about how they've gotten the right people at their table and, and take those lessons to heart in your own organization.

[00:06:08] Host: And apart from getting the right people to the table, also, how crucial is mentorship and succession planning by the current generation of standards professionals to pass on the baton to the next generation?

[00:06:22] Megan Hayes: I think right now mentorship, whether it's through a formal mentorship program or an informal mentorship between two committee members is critical. When I first started in standards 22 years ago, which sounds so crazy to me, it was a lot of sink or swim. Join this committee, sit on this panel and figure it out. I don't think that's the best way to bring the new generation in. And it's, it's certainly key to ensure not just that you have the right stakeholders on your committee, but to ensure that they're being engaged in the work. And without that mentorship and having somebody who's been there, kind of explain what's going on, what the rules are, how the procedures work, Folks are just gonna be confused and they're not gonna engage in the actual work at hand. And so from my perspective, Everybody that's been sitting on a technical panel for more than a few years should be doing their best to welcome new participants, to mentor them either formally or informally, and to ensure that we're not speaking what I call "standard speak" at meetings and explaining what's going on. You know, the more acronyms you'd use does not make you smarter. It just makes everybody else confused.

[00:07:45] Host: And it alienates people so that engagement doesn't happen. So when you look at the standards development community the way it is right now with regards to being more diverse and inclusive, is it about striking a fine balance between diversity and how different regions also define gender and inclusiveness?

[00:08:03] Megan Hayes: So, I think that depends upon the standards development organization for the International Electro Technical Commission, as I mentioned, our members, our national bodies are countries, and it's key that we are sensitive to different cultural expectations from around the world. For NEMA, uh, we don't have the same challenges that the IEC has, but different companies have different cultures. And so I think we have to strike that balance between wanting to ensure that we have diversity and understanding where our members are coming from, whether they be national bodies, companies or organizations. You know, for the IEC, when we focus on gender, the expert management system allows three choices. That is Mr. Ms. or Mx. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I understand that here in the United States and in many other countries around the world, we consider gender on a much broader spectrum. But that's not true for all of the IEC member bodies. So the IEC had to strike that balance, and, and I think that they've done a good job of that, and, and I think every organization needs to ensure that they're understanding their member's culture and being sensitive to any of those needs.

[00:09:20] Host: And it's about striking those balances. But are there any examples from your experience of standards challenges that eventually worked out because they were open to and went along with more diverse perspectives?

[00:09:35] Megan Hayes: I could probably come up with dozens of them, Right? and I think anybody that's been in standards long enough could. I'll give one example. When I was in the consumer electronics industry, we, we were working with the US Environmental Protection Agency on, energy efficiency for televisions. Mm-hmm. , and they wanted to. Write their own standard. We convinced them that the right place to do that on, on how to measure the energy consumption of televisions was at the IEC. When we started to do that work, we realized because we had this international community that people around the world watched TV differently. Mm. and when you take a TV out of the box in the United States, it's set up differently than if you take it out of the box in Japan. And, uh, that led to what the IEC staff likes to call the most boring CD in the world, or D V D. And it literally is just a set of clips that represents how people watch TV around the world. that Other regulators could rely on that standard and ensure that it reflected their own population.

[00:10:46] Host: That is so interesting because you're taking into consideration so many different factors. So what is the impact on standards development when the consumer perspective, is seriously taken into consideration while developing those standards?

[00:11:00] Megan Hayes: I mean, I think at the end of the day, if you're talking about a consumer product, you wanna be designing that product for the consumer. And without the consumer perspective, you don't understand how the product is being used. I always say if you're in a discussion on standards development and you keep hitting a block or you don't know the answer, you don't have the right people at the table. A while back we were in discussions again with the CPSC about the issue of button cell batteries and little children getting ahold of them, eating them, and getting really sick. And the consumers at the table were insistent that the only way to solve this problem was to ensure that the compartment where that battery was could only be opened using a tool. And when we discussed it with them, The engineers at the table were able to come up with other solutions that were just as robust, but allowed for different product designs. And it, and without that discussion with the consumer, without having those discussions with the CPSC about the impact of button cell batteries being available to children, those kinds of innovative discussions would not have happened. So, you know, I think at the end of the day, getting the consumers there, whether it's officially as part of the consensus body or unofficially having those discussions at round tables like we did at the CPSC, is only going to lead to better and more robust standards, whether that be about product safety or whether that be about another feature or function of the product.

[00:12:40] Host: And it all goes back to getting the right people to the table. And one of the calls to action of this podcast is to have more women from diverse backgrounds participate on STPs. As an industry leader yourself, what do you believe must change to make them feel heard?

[00:12:58] Megan Hayes: So I think one thing is getting more women, and I know that, you know, that that seems counterproductive. If, if the, if the challenge is getting more women and the solution is getting more women, how are we gonna do that? But, I've certainly seen more women at every standards organization that I work with over the years and. There's a, um, there's a tipping point, right? The, the research tells us that if you are looking to engage women or minority populations, it's like 30%, if 30% of your group is from that population, they feel more comfortable. One example that I love to give is on the United States National Committee to the IEC. When I first started, there were maybe two or three women there, and that was it. And over time we realized that. There were more and more of us and, and organically we started to have what we called the Women at the USNC dinner. It wasn't anything official, but it really gave us an opportunity to get to know each other outside of that, you know, work committee. And it made us all more comfortable in expressing our voices. So, You know, I like to encourage women to, to formally or informally get together. Last week I was in San Francisco at the IEC general meeting. It was really, really exciting to be there in person again after so long and, UL and NEMA and, CTA and a bunch of other organizations sponsored our Women in the IEC lunch. Mm. And it was so amazing. I it, the lunch itself was great and the speakers were fantastic, but the thing that I saw at the end that was the most encouraging, was women didn't wanna leave the room. They wanted to talk to each other and network. And, you know, I think that's great for the IEC and those kinds of things need to be happening more and more.

[00:15:01] Host: And for listeners of this conversation, considering the, that move to bring more and more women together, what should they bring to the table?

[00:15:10] Megan Hayes: I think that depends upon the standard that we're talking about or the issue but one thing is to bring your own perspective, whatever that is. If you're talking about, you know, a consumer product for children and you're a mom or a grandmom or an aunt or a sibling, think about how that is gonna impact your child. The other thing is when you're, there's a great push. From the UN, from the IEC, from ISO, as you mentioned earlier, for, gender-responsive standards. And if you're not bringing your perspective as a woman to those standards and saying, This is different for women, the standard is never going to reflect how women are gonna use those products. So as a woman, you just need to bring your authentic self, I think, and I think that's great advice for anybody at a standards table. Don't be afraid to raise your voice. Don't be afraid to provide your perspective, because if you don't, nobody's gonna listen. You know, they always say the, only stupid question is the one that goes unasked. And if you don't ask, the answer is always no. Mm.

[00:16:24] Host: Megan Hayes, thank you so much for your perspective and for speaking to us and giving us your time on the Word to the W.I.S.E. Podcast.

[00:16:31] Megan Hayes: Thank you very much. I really appreciated the opportunity. And, you know, I'm happy to answer questions from any of your listeners. So, I'm excited for more diverse standards development and to continue the work of the IEC Diversity Advisory Committee.