EP46 – Are Coding Bootcamps Worth It?

Coders Campus Podcast

All right, my fellow coders. Welcome to this sort of inaugural episode of the podcast, where I'm going to be sort of… I love the podcast. I love recording this content. I love sharing all of my tidbits of knowledge around coding, and there's just not a great way in my schedule to fit it all in, because I've been so busy lately, but I figured, hey, I go for walks pretty much every day. So I will go ahead and record as I'm on my sort of morning walk. So excuse the background noise and whatnot as I am going about my recording here. So yeah, basically today, I want to talk a little bit about obviously coding bootcamps. That's been our focus for this series, and when it comes to coding bootcamps, one of the questions I often get is, should I even join a bootcamp?

Is it even worth it? Is it right for me? Oftentimes I've heard that these things are very expensive and often they're a scam and all these sorts of ideas and concepts are circulating in the general knowledge when it comes to people looking to learn how to code. So I want to address all of those if I can on this, like I said, inaugural episode of me going for a walk, looking like a strange person, talking to myself while I inform you of all of the knowledge that I have with respect to not only learning how to code and getting a job, but also coding bootcamps. So first I'll start things off by talking about whether or not it is a good fit for you. So, the way I've seen it, and I've been teaching people how to code for around nine years.

And I have been doing bootcamps for at this point around two years. I've seen a few students come through my doors with respect to bootcamps, and I've seen literally thousands come through my doors in terms of regular, old, online course buyers, or… They buy my book or they buy my online courses or they subscribe to a YouTube channel, that kind of thing. So I've been exposed to a large amount of people that are trying to ultimately learn how to code with a goal of getting a job. They basically break down into three categories. So if you're in one of these three categories, I would say you're probably a good fit, and it's probably something you should consider.

The first group is people who are sort of about to graduate from some sort of college or university with an associates degree or a bachelor's or a master's degree, or people who have very recently graduated from one of those programs. So this one's a bit counter-intuitive, but a lot of students are catching on that university, and the typical path of go to school, get a degree, get a job, doesn't really work that well. I spent a lot of time talking about this in I think the past episode where that was not my experience, it took me five and a half years to get a job, as a coder, going through the whole school thing and whatnot. And then it also took one of my closest friends, Nathan, six years before he got a job. And it's just a constant story that comes up where I talk to people on Zoom calls, talking to them to see if they'd be a good fit for the bootcamp. And so many of them, I would say almost half of the people I speak to, are currently in school, close to graduating.

They might have one or two semesters left and they realize, “Uh oh, I don't feel like I'm ready for a job.” Or there's people who have graduated, and then they do realize in the real world, “Uh oh, I cannot get a job.” Now, this isn't the case for everyone, but there's enough people out there that makes me worried. Because again, I was in that situation that the education system, at least the formal education system, where you go to a college, you can get a degree, it doesn't really prepare you for the real world.

So that's where if you're in that boat, if you're feeling like, “Ah, I'm in college right now and I just don't feel like I'm ready for the real world. I feel like I've learned a little bit about a lot of subjects. I've learned a little bit of Python, I've learned a little bit of Java. I've learned a little bit of C++, maybe a little bit like assembly language or some other useless thing that is not going to help you in the real world. I've learned a little bit of everything, but I don't feel confident in my skills.” So if that's you, first of all, that's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. That's just the formal education system and the way it works and the way it's set up, it's a bit antiquated.

And although it's a great social experience, like I said before, it doesn't really prepare you for the real world. So if you're in that boat, a bootcamp might be a good fit for you. I would consider it in your case. The next student type that I see come through my doors who are interested in bootcamps, are students who, they have a job already in the real world. They're working in what I call an adjacent field to programming. So this might be someone who is working as a QA, the quality assurance person, someone who's working in dev ops, development operations; any sort of field where you interact with developers on a daily basis or weekly basis.

And you say to yourself, “Huh, they seem like they're having a lot of fun. They seem like they get paid very well. The perks that they have seem very desirable and it seems like an interesting career path.” So this is very common, right? People who work in the real world with developers who are not actually doing any development themselves, that is a another group type that I see. That maybe makes up, I don't know, 20-25% of the students that I see in my bootcamps. So if you're in that category, it's also a good fit, right? A part-time boot camp works well if you had a full-time job, and you can find an hour or two during the weekdays, and maybe a bigger chunk of time over the weekends. That's where these things work quite well, actually. So, if you're in that boat, consider a bootcamp.

The third category are people who have no experience with development at all. They've never worked with a developer. They work in a job that has nothing to do with software development, but they feel like, again, same thing as group number two, which is they feel like software development is something that sounds interesting to them. And again, looks like a great career, looks like they're getting a lot of perks as developers, that kind of thing. So yeah, they're interested in this path. This makes up probably, well, whatever the rest of that would be, what 40 plus 25 is 65. So 45% of my students are in this category. They have absolutely no experience as the developer. They're just like, “Huh, I think I should… I want to change jobs. I kind of hate the job that I'm in right now. It's not a fun experience for me. I'm tired of doing hard labor or whatever the case may be. I'm just bored of the work that I'm doing. It's just mind numbing, and I constantly look forward to the weekends, and I hate Mondays.” Right?

If that's you, I would say you're possibly a good fit for the bootcamp. I say possibly because there's one criteria for this category that I usually use to separate out the people who really would be a good fit for the bootcamp. And that is some mechanism to ensure that you will enjoy this process. Learning how to code, as I've said, many times, is very, very, very difficult. It is frustrating. It will try your patience. It will really exercise your willpower, your stick-to-it-ness if you will, because it's very hard to learn how to code. And it's very easy to quit when you're just starting to hit the first roadblocks.

So what I generally recommend for this group of people is to do some sort of introductory course, to do some sort of way to dip your toes in the waters of development in general. That's where I talk about my bootcamp prep course, right? The coderscampus.com/start. If you go there, you can get a free sort of… I don't want to say free trial. It's completely free forever. It allows you to dip your toes in those waters and see if development is something that you might enjoy. Okay? So, if you go to coderscampus.com/start, you'll be able to try the first four weeks of the bootcamp. There's a couple of assignments in there. There's a Slack channel, so if you need help, you can reach out on Slack, because you're most likely going to need help. You're most likely going to get stuck, and this is where bootcamps are, in my opinion, vastly superior from typical online courses, when you can get access to the instructors directly in more or less real time via a chat application like Slack.

It's just far superior than sending an email or posting in a Facebook group or something. It's helpful posting in a Facebook group, but it's not… You really need that live feedback. You need that live interaction with an instructor in real-time so that you can make sure that you're understanding all the stuff that… You're learning, right? You got to practice and you got to make sure that you're understanding it. So that's my only stipulation for this third category of people, which is, you need to make sure that you are cut out for it, at least a little bit, right? Everyone's going to feel like they're not cut out for it, but you got to dip your toes in and see, “Do I even enjoy this process?” Okay?

So, for that third category, if you're someone who loves to learn, if you are always curious, if you like to tinker with computers, if any of those things sort of apply to you, you're probably cut out for this. You're probably going to be a good fit, but still I would recommend you go and take some sort of free introductory lessons just to see how you feel about the whole thing. Once you've done that, boom, then once you've crossed that threshold and realize, “Okay, I can push through and I can complete some assignments here,” then by all means I think a bootcamp would be a great fit for you. So, all of that is to say, those are the three sort of categories of people that I see the most come through my doors.

It doesn't mean that if you're not in one of those three categories, that this would not be a good fit for you. You never know. Ultimately it comes down to the grit, right? Ultimately it comes down to, do you want this bad enough? Right? Do you want to put yourself through the uncomfortable experience of learning how to code so that you can unlock the rewards at the end of the tunnel? Okay? That's really what it comes down to. So, having said that, that's sort of the categories that I look at for people who would be best fit for the bootcamp. Now I want to talk more about the public perception. The public, whatever, I guess, perception of bootcamps in general. Excuse me. You might have seen or heard articles talking about, these catchy headlines where it's like, “90% of all bootcamps are just a scam.”

Now, I don't know, I can't speak to the fact that the correctness of the 90% figure. I certainly know that I've looked at other bootcamp curriculums, I've looked at the way the programs are set up. I've spoken to some of the students who have taken other bootcamps and they would echo that sentiment in that some of them were poorly organized, poorly put together. They did not really have the greatest experience in terms of support. It happens. There are definitely bootcamps out there. Unfortunately it will be on you to do your research, to make sure that any bootcamp that you're considering is a good one. Does not mean that every boot camp out there is a scam. Okay? When you have the mindset of, oh… These absolute mindsets. Everything out there is a scam and the landscape is just too ridiculous and too difficult, and everyone's out to get me. That's just victim mindset that will literally get you absolutely nowhere in life, let alone learning how to code.

So, there are definitely great bootcamps out there. Very reputable ones, very large ones that have done fantastic job at creating a legacy for themselves, as well as small ones like mine who are starting out with lots of enthusiasm and having lots of great initial success. Okay? So, unfortunately, you just have to do your research. Red flags, things to look out for are curriculums that are outdated. Okay? If the curriculum in a bootcamp looks like a curriculum in college, if you're learning all the same topics and nothing more, that's a red flag. That means the college has likely just purchased a bootcamp, and is sort of using the bootcamp as a means to… It's another marketing channel or another way to make money for the university. So, keep an eye out for that.

Look to see if they have any data on placements. Right? You want to make sure that ultimately the goal is to get placed in a job, so does the bootcamp have metrics? Can they share data and talk numbers about placement rates and whatnot, and get curious about those? Don't just accept the number, right? Like if I say, “Hey, our bootcamp right now has a 90% plus placement rate.” Well, great, but what does that mean? Right? What do you mean? Based on what? How do you come to that number? And if you ask me that question, I would say, “Well, it's based off of people who graduated first. So you have to graduate before you are considered in that number.” Okay? Thankfully, my graduation rate is fairly high. I do everything I can in my power to help my students out during the process of learning, but other bootcamps, the graduation rates are terrible, and a lot of students drop out, and they've invested all that money and gotten maybe not so much out of that.

And then, for the ones that did graduate, for the minority that crossed this extremely crazy threshold, then yeah, look, we have a hundred percent placement rate. So, there's a way to fudge the numbers there, so make sure that you can do that research as well and ask those types of questions. And obviously, if there's a way to contact alumni, that's always a helpful way to get feedback. Places like Course Report or something, has a good way to look at ratings or reviews of bootcamps, that kind of thing. So, anyway, in general, is every bootcamp in existence a scam? No. Are 90% of them a scam? I doubt it. A lot of these negative feedbacks that you… Or the negative feedback you might hear are students who failed, who actually were not able to complete a bootcamp. And therefore, they deem that as a failure of the school, and put it all on the school and say, “The school failed me and this school is awful, and I can't recommend it to anyone.”

For those, it's a case by case basis because some students are just not willing to put in any extra effort at all. And there's nothing that any school would be able to do for those students. Right? They were doomed to fail to begin with. Again, I repeat, learning how to code is very, very, very hard. It's going to take a lot of effort, a lot of hard work, a lot of dedication, motivation, willpower. Acquiring this skill is difficult. If it were not difficult, then there would not be a shortage of good coders. Right? There would not be so many jobs open and available in the world of software development if it was easy to become a software developer. So, keep that in mind as well, when you are looking to students' reviews and ratings and whatnot. Sometimes it's just, the student was not willing to put in more than five hours a week or 10 hours a week. Right?

If someone's not willing to put in the time, they're not going to succeed, they're going to fail, and then they're just going to blame it on other people. So again, that's the sort of victim mentality, don't fall victim to the victim mentality. Okay. So, bootcamps in general, again, as I've spoken about, in my experience doing this for almost a decade, they are by far the most effective mechanism I have seen for getting people jobs as software developers, period. Bar none. I've tried them all. I've seen them all. I've experienced them all. There's nothing more effective than that. Now, I've been talking for a while. I want to talk about the cost of the bootcamp as well. So, it's just started to rain now. I'm standing under a tree, I guess I could talk a little bit about that. So bootcamps and cost. So it's no surprise, it's no secret that bootcamps are expensive if you just look at the sticker price. Right? If you just look at the price tag, you'll say, “Oh my God, that's expensive.”

That could be a fair analogy if that's all you're looking at. Right? If you compare say, “Oh, I could get an online course, or I can get a bootcamp. Oh my God, the bootcamp costs a hundred times more, or something. Or a thousand times more. That must be a rip off. That must be a scam. That must be some way that someone is trying to take advantage of me.” But there's a reason for that price tag. There's a reason that bootcamps cost more. It's because of the effort that goes into helping the students, right? The one-on-one effort, the staff, all the logistics around fulfilling them and organizing them. And it's a lot more work to organize a bootcamp than it is to just publish an online course. Again, I know, I've published like 20 online courses myself.

They're simple. It takes me a few hours of work. I maybe put in 10 hours of work, 20 hours of work, and boom, I've got a course and I can sell it, and I never have to do anything for that ever again. 20 hours of work, done. A boot camp is far more work. So, that's where that sticker shock will come from. But remember, success rates. The success rate of an online course, the success rate of a university program, versus the success rate of a bootcamp. You have to look at the success rate in terms of people's outcomes in terms of getting a job, and you need to look at the length of time it takes to get that job. Okay? Universities typically three to five years of work needs to go into that. Okay? And tens and tens of thousands of dollars, if not a hundred thousand dollars or more.

In my opinion, again, if you're part of that first group of students who are currently in university, I'm so sorry, but I need to say this. This is the least effective mechanism that you can leverage. Okay? It is the most expensive and it takes the most time to ultimately achieve the goal that you are setting out to achieve. Okay? So if you're looking to spend a lot of money and take a lot of time before you finally get that job, hey, universities are great. Obviously, that's not a great way to go.

The second best way to go in my opinion is online courses, okay? Far less expensive than university programs, and oftentimes, if you are dedicated enough, if you have enough gusto and effort that you can put into, it takes less time than a university program. Okay? You can get there in less than three years and spend far less money. It's a lot more frustrating because you don't really have any mentors, you don't have anyone to guide you, you probably won't have a group of people that you can collaborate with and work with and have the comradery with. So, this route, although a lot more affordable, is probably more difficult than any of the other mechanisms.

So, the success rate of the learning on my own and buying online courses is the lowest amongst all of them. Okay? Typically I see a 5% quote-unquote graduation rate for students in an online course, meaning only 5% of the students will actually complete the online course. Sorry, an annoying truck coming up. So, if it's only 5% of students who are going to graduate, what percentage of those students are even going to get a job? It's an even smaller percentage. So we're maybe talking at best two and a half percent. So at best two and a half percent will actually succeed and get a job with just self-education. Okay? You see a lot of great stories out there, a lot of great, feel good stories like, “Oh my God, I did it. I learned on my own. I didn't have to pay a lot of money, and I got a job,” and that's great.

I love it. I've had a lot of those stories myself, but they are the vocal minority, right? You were incentivized to share that story. It's a feel good story. People will react nicely to it, and they'll give you a congrats and all that stuff. And plus you just want to celebrate, right? That's why you want to share those kinds of messages. You are not incentivized to share that story if you failed, right? If you tried to succeed, you tried to do online courses, and you gave up after a year and said, “This is not for me. I must not be smart enough.” You are not incentivized to share that story, so that's why you don't hear from a lot of those people. Okay? So, learning on your own is great if you are very motivated, very dedicated, very all the stuff, right?

All the unfair advantages that you could have over anyone else, because you can dedicate 40 hours a week or 60 hours a week to learning and… It can be done, but it takes… Outcomes, the success rate is quite low unless you are a unicorn. Right? I don't say unicorn, but unless you are, there's something special about you. So, that from, again, my experience, that's what I've seen. Now, with bootcamps, the success rate of bootcamps is in my opinion, at least on par with the success rate of universities. If not slightly better, but that's only with me. I can't speak to all bootcamps, but I would say that the success rate for students getting into a bootcamp and getting a job is probably at least on par with the university programs, but obviously a lot less expensive. Boot camps are not a hundred thousand dollars.

Boot camps, hopefully, are not tens of thousands of dollars. Okay? Hopefully a good bootcamp for right now in 2021, the average cost of bootcamp is about 12 to $15,000, US dollars. Again, it sounds expensive, but when you look at the data and you look at outcomes, it's actually the most affordable, and I'll explain why. So, bootcamps typically are about six to nine months in duration. Any good bootcamp is about six to nine months in duration, and hey, maybe even longer. That's cool too. Hopefully not over a year. If it's over a year, then something else is going on there in terms of what they're trying to do for you, but the average boot camp is I would say six to nine months in duration. And then you graduate, and then any good bootcamp worth their salt, will have a placement rate of, like I said, high 80s or low 90s.

And they will get you that job within six months. So that high 80s to low 90s metric in terms of placement rate for getting people a job is based on getting a student a job within six months of graduation. So, you're looking at six months at a bootcamp and up to a maximum of six months of job hunting, if you will, before you are placed. So let's say, worst case scenario, about a year, before you can be placed on the job. So, one year of effort with an investment of, let's say on average 12 to $15,000 for the bootcamp before you are earning money. You're earning an average salary of probably 60 to 70,000 US dollars. Okay? About one year, versus self-taught. Self-taught is you pay almost nothing, in comparison. In self-taught you might pay a few hundred dollars, maybe a thousand, but typically self-taught, again, the success rates and the time it takes to become successful in terms of being placed is usually on the order of years.

From start to finish, if someone starts to tinker around and start to learn how to code to, I actually have a job and I'm sharing my success story, on average, it's more than a year, it's maybe two years. Right? So, on average, I would say it takes about a year more for, again, that sort of not unicorn of a student, but the student who is willing to put in a lot of effort, a lot of extra effort. So, for the student, who's putting in a lot of extra effort and actually gets rewarded for that effort, they are able to find success by getting a job within let's say two years. Okay? So on average, about a year extra, versus a bootcamp.

And then universities, as we know, not everyone graduates. Some people drop out from university and still owe all that money. Some people do graduate and never end up finding employment and give up and do something else. So it's not all 100% in terms of, person who starts as a computer science major or something, and then graduates as a computer science major, that number is actually quite horrendous. My first year computer science course, had about 500 people in the lecture hall, okay? Year one, 500 people. Year two, maybe 50-ish. So 90% of the students who started as a computer science major did not continue as a computer science major. They said, “Oh, you know what? Maybe I'll change my degree. Maybe I'll major in math instead. Maybe I'll major in social studies or English literature,” or whatever. I'm being a bit facetious here. But yeah, that number drops significantly. So the success rate of universities are pretty poor and they're very expensive, and they take on average three to four years.

So again, I'm so sorry if you are in college right now. If your goal is to get a job, it's… Hey, if you can afford it, again, if you can afford it, if you're not going into crazy amounts of student debt, it's a great social experience. You grow a lot as a human being, probably will be the best years of your life. In my opinion, hey, it's worth the investment on that front, but solely relying on it to be an investment to get a job, I can't condone that messaging. So yeah. So how does this all shake out? So universities, way too long; self-taught way more affordable, but also probably at least a year more, if not far longer. Potentially, the success rate is even lower. So let's just say, let's take the happy path, and say that you are one of those unicorns.

You are someone who can do it in that timeframe. You can spend less than a thousand dollars and get a job within a couple of years. But if you look at just the numbers, if you look at someone, if you were that same person, you copy that person into two, one person chooses the route of self-learning for a couple of years, and one person chooses bootcamp for about one year. Again, probably that's worst case. Most of my students are placed within two months of graduation, but let's use the worst case. That means that on average, a student in a bootcamp will graduate a year sooner. And if you graduate a year sooner as a programmer and are earning an average salary of 60,000 US dollars, and you are able to have that salary of 60,000 US dollars… Again, that's an average salary.

It depends on if you're a west coast, that's much higher. If you're in a big, big, major city like New York or something, much higher than that average salary. But anyway, let's stick with averages. You graduate and you get a job a year sooner than the self-paced learner. How much money is a self-paced learner earning in their current position? If they do not have any employment that is a $60,000 difference, net difference. So you're making an extra $60,000 from choosing the bootcamp. You invested 10, 12, 15,000 in the bootcamp. You take that away from the net, minus taxes and whatnot, you're still coming out far ahead of the person who was learning on their own, full-time for two years. Right? Let's say the person learning on their own doing online courses has a full-time job, getting an average, whatever the salary is, what $40,000 a year or something, average salary? While they're going to have less time to dedicate to learning on their own, which probably is going to push that two years back a bit more. It might be two and a half or three years now. But let's just say two years.

Again, you look at the numbers, you will be able to place yourself in a job once you go through a bootcamp, a year sooner, making probably on average $20,000 more a year. Well, within that first year, you've paid off the entire bootcamp, and then, made a little bit of profit potentially after tax. Maybe. It could break even. It could mean the difference in the salary is such that you just pay off the bootcamp after the first year, but then guess what? Year two, you're not only going to probably be making $60,000 again, you're probably going to be making 65 or $70,000 because salaries of coders go up very, very quickly for the first, whatever, five to 10 years of your career. Let's say 10 years of your career. They go up very far, very high, very quickly.

You might start at 60, but within five or 10, well, let's say seven years, you'll definitely be in the six figures. Right? So, the sooner you can get on a path, the sooner you can start getting raises, the faster you're going to be outpacing your duplicate, if you will, who was doing the self-paced route. So you have to look at the numbers, the actual hard science and data behind all this stuff, and look at it objectively, not subjectively. Don't be lulled into this group mindset of, “Oh, every bootcamp is a scam and they're so expensive and everyone's out to get me, and you're an idiot. If you're doing a bootcamp.” Right? Look at the numbers, look at the data, look at the actual charts that show these outcomes. This is not hard to calculate.

When you look at it from a data mindset, you are going to see that the most effective, the most efficient, the most affordable path forward… Well, if you look at the numbers, hopefully, you'll come to the same conclusion of which of the three methods or mechanisms are the best, if you will, in terms of just how do I get more money in my pocket faster and over time as well. Okay? That's why I say, there's no more effective, there's no more impressive means of achieving the goal of getting a job than bootcamps. Okay? Hopefully that makes sense to you. Yeah.

Again, I never really wanted to do a bootcamp and launch bootcamps. I would've much rather stayed in the world of just plain old, online education, because it was far, far easier, far less complicated. My lifestyle was much simpler, just doing online courses as a business owner. It was amazing. It was great, but really, I had to swallow that hard pill of, look, although my life is great and grand, my goal is to help people get jobs. And if I'm really true to myself and what I want to be doing here to help students change their lives and ultimately change the world. I mean, I just can't, now that I know this data, recommend the online course, self-taught path, or the college education route. I just can't do it with a good conscience.

So yeah, that's where that comes from, right? Why do I keep talking of bootcamps now? That's where that comes from. It's just the most effective way for you to achieve your goal. If your goal is to get a job. If your goal is not to get a job and you just want to learn for fun, oh my God, then online education is the way to go. Absolutely. Hopefully you can stay motivated. Hopefully that will drive you to stay motivated. You definitely don't need a bootcamp if all you want to do is learn for fun and you don't want to get a job. Yeah. Unless you have piles of money and you're willing to spend it on something like a bootcamp and learn faster, then great, fine. That works out. But yeah, if you don't have a lot of cash on hand and you just want to learn for fun, then no, don't take the bootcamp.

So hopefully, that was obvious. I don't need to say it, but yeah, there that is. So, hopefully this was helpful. Hopefully this was insightful. Hopefully this format of me walking around, getting some exercise while I share these tidbits, is enjoyable. Obviously I'm open to feedback. So, feel free to reach out, send me an email or something. Trevor at coderscampus.com. If you're interested in my particular bootcamp, you can check it out, coderscampus.com/bootcamp. If you're interested in that free course, again, if you're in third category of person who does not have any experience in coding whatsoever, you will not be admitted into my bootcamp. You need to have some exposure to it first.

Again, we have to get past that great dividing wall of the first year of university, if you will, to separate out the people who think that they want to do this, but actually don't want to do this, from the people who do want to do this. So, if you have absolutely no experience as a coder, please do take my free course first, the free bootcamp prep course, coderscampus.com/start; S-T-A-R-T to start your career, if you will. See if you like it, see if you can handle it, ask questions, you get access to Slack. You can interact with me. You get to do a couple of assignments and dip your toes in the waters. If you like it, then, hey, cool. Then we can put you into the next bootcamp cohort. If you already have experience as a coder and you know you want to do this, then coderscampus.com/bootcamp. Check it out, and if you like it, you can apply for free. So, there's an application process. You have to fill out a form, hop on a phone call with us for the admissions process.

We can't accept every student because we have limited cohorts and they're actually filling up now. Which is great for the business and great for the students, but like I said, I can't just take a hundred students or a thousand students or 4,000 students tomorrow, because bootcamps are so much more effort than regular old, online education. Anyway, if you're interested coderscampus.com/bootcamp. Thank you so much for listening. I've had actually a lot of fun doing this podcast while I walked around. Unfortunately, like I said, it was raining, so I had to spend most of my time standing in front of my own house, but hey, hopefully tomorrow or the next day it'll be nicer and we can chat some more. So thanks so much for listening and, yeah, look forward to seeing you in the next podcast episode. Take care of yourself. Happy learning and bye for now.

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